For a neowalker to attain that level of power, they would have to live for a very, very long time. Since they are no longer immortal like the old walkers, it becomes very unlikely that a more than a couple neowalkers will ever be able to live lonng enough to reach that level of power.
Inded. But as mentioned earlier, a more powerful sorce would have to give them this kind of power if they were to obtain it.
For a neowalker to attain that level of power, they would have to live for a very, very long time. Since they are no longer immortal like the old walkers, it becomes very unlikely that a more than a couple neowalkers will ever be able to live lonng enough to reach that level of power.
Yes definitely. I agree with the above statements. However, I do believe that we would see more Archmage Eternals like good old Jodah.
A neowalker would decimate nearly any nonwalker alive(I'd give Jodah an edge). The ability to walk planes allows you to cast spells a mage from say Mercadia has never seen.
This is true. Nevertheless, the crapwalker would be able to decimate most adversaries. However, I think Jodah would still kick their butts--he was a veritable Planeswalker w/o a spark.
Yes definitely. I agree with the above statements. However, I do believe that we would see more Archmage Eternals like good old Jodah.
This is true. Nevertheless, the crapwalker would be able to decimate most adversaries. However, I think Jodah would still kick their butts--he was a veritable Planeswalker w/o a spark.
This could be true as Jodah has stood up to planeswalkers. He had such control and power due to being around for such a long time. He dealt with the aspects of color magic and contributed in returning the shard. Also oversaw the school of the unseen so he had all kinds of knowledge involving magic at his fingertips. Not to mention he is a descendant of Urza.
@SpectreEvincar- A neowalker would decimate nearly any nonwalker alive(I'd give Jodah an edge). The ability to walk planes allows you to cast spells a mage from say Mercadia has never seen.
Then why was Chandra shown running from some measly museum guards in her preview comic? Why was her battle against some animated gargoyles such a climactic event for her?
No, the new 'walkers will not be decimating anything. They are essentially basic mages with a more expanded view on the world (worlds?). I haven't read all the books, but I'm really sad they killed Urza, he was my absolute favorite (I identified with his character a lot). And he was an excellent illustration of how, while immortal, planeswalkers were not free of affliction. His paranoia and obsession combined with his awesome powers and made for interesting reading.
Also, that comment about dealing with a higher power? That should never happen. Planeswalkers should BE the highest power. Even if they're watered down.
It seems that in any continuing franchise, the greatest danger will always be a shift in leadership. I find this most distressing in comics, when one writer decides some character must die, but the next had a special attachment, so they contrive some means of reviving them, but then the next writer kills them because they dislike contrivance. I can only pray that someone will come along to rectify the travesty of what someone referred to as "planescrawlers". I'm not saying they have to bring back god-walkers; but surely they can create something closer to them while avoiding the mistakes of the past (planeswalker inflation, infinite mana; really, I'm just looking for immortality, it makes for much better reading).
And lastly, why does nobody like Umezawa? He was crafty and slick, exactly what is needed to keep a character interesting. I wanted him to join the ranks of the real planeswalkers, because that's what god-like characters need. When everyone has insane powers, it is the clever people who win. But we'll never see him, because people were so outraged with Kamigawa.
@SpectreEvincar- A neowalker would decimate nearly any nonwalker alive(I'd give Jodah an edge). The ability to walk planes allows you to cast spells a mage from say Mercadia has never seen.
Then why was Chandra shown running from some measly museum guards in her preview comic? Why was her battle against some animated gargoyles such a climactic event for her?
No, the new 'walkers will not be decimating anything. They are essentially basic mages with a more expanded view on the world (worlds?). I haven't read all the books, but I'm really sad they killed Urza, he was my absolute favorite (I identified with his character a lot). And he was an excellent illustration of how, while immortal, planeswalkers were not free of affliction. His paranoia and obsession combined with his awesome powers and made for interesting reading.
Also, that comment about dealing with a higher power? That should never happen. Planeswalkers should BE the highest power. Even if they're watered down.
It seems that in any continuing franchise, the greatest danger will always be a shift in leadership. I find this most distressing in comics, when one writer decides some character must die, but the next had a special attachment, so they contrive some means of reviving them, but then the next writer kills them because they dislike contrivance. I can only pray that someone will come along to rectify the travesty of what someone referred to as "planescrawlers". I'm not saying they have to bring back god-walkers; but surely they can create something closer to them while avoiding the mistakes of the past (planeswalker inflation, infinite mana; really, I'm just looking for immortality, it makes for much better reading).
And lastly, why does nobody like Umezawa? He was crafty and slick, exactly what is needed to keep a character interesting. I wanted him to join the ranks of the real planeswalkers, because that's what god-like characters need. When everyone has insane powers, it is the clever people who win. But we'll never see him, because people were so outraged with Kamigawa.
Please refrain from double posting. In the future, if you want to add something, use the edit button on your last post.
Then why was Chandra shown running from some measly museum guards in her preview comic? Why was her battle against some animated gargoyles such a climactic event for her?
No, the new 'walkers will not be decimating anything. They are essentially basic mages with a more expanded view on the world (worlds?).
Couldn't have said it better myself...I haven't read any preview comics about the crapwalkers because...they're...well...crap (the crapwalkers and the comics). The crapwalkers are just wizards. Yes, they're powerful wizards that should be able to handle themselves...but they have the same limitation as normal mages as well. They can't willing shapeshift all the damn time. They feel tired. They're bodies and undoubtedly physical. They don't have infinite mana sources. There's also a variable power level just like with anything else--some crapwalkers are stronger than others and some are more warrior-like while other may be more mage-like. I wouldn't say they're all basic mages, though I'm sure a large number of crapwalkers are. exactly that.
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I haven't read all the books, but I'm really sad they killed Urza, he was my absolute favorite (I identified with his character a lot). And he was an excellent illustration of how, while immortal, planeswalkers were not free of affliction. His paranoia and obsession combined with his awesome powers and made for interesting reading.
Yeah, Urza is da bomb. I was definitely unhappy when he died in the novel Apocalypse as part of the Invasion Cycle. He was a great examples of a real Planeswalker. They called him Urza Planeswalker didn't they? I also identified with him.
Quote from Myznomer »
Also, that comment about dealing with a higher power? That should never happen. Planeswalkers should BE the highest power. Even if they're watered down.
Yeah, I'm not sure about this. There are only a few characters that have a higher power level that the average Planeswalker (crapwalker not included). For example, you have Gaea--who/which has been described as the "world spirit" of the plane of Dominaria--not sure exactly. Yawgmoth seems to think that she is Rebbecc...not sure (again). Maybe O-Kagachi? Yeah there's hasn't been enough material to clear this up. The tier system (aka. people-mages-planeswalker-blah blah) hasn't help me make sense of it all yet, though I haven't had time to give it much thought lately.
Quote from Myznomer »
It seems that in any continuing franchise, the greatest danger will always be a shift in leadership. I find this most distressing in comics, when one writer decides some character must die, but the next had a special attachment, so they contrive some means of reviving them, but then the next writer kills them because they dislike contrivance. I can only pray that someone will come along to rectify the travesty of what someone referred to as "planescrawlers". I'm not saying they have to bring back god-walkers; but surely they can create something closer to them while avoiding the mistakes of the past (planeswalker inflation, infinite mana; really, I'm just looking for immortality, it makes for much better reading).
Ah, shifts in leadership...
Yeah, actually, I'd rather have the god-walkers. I DON'T want something in-between crapwalkers and Planeswalkers. Then there'll be a third level. NOOOOOOO! I just wish they'd get the old Planeswalkers back. If a new one needed to be introduced, WoTC should just put him/her in the universe--doesn't have to be someone at the power level of Urza, Taysir, Nicol Bolas, Freyalise, or whatever. There are plenty of old Planeswalkers that were not extremely powerful and it has been made clear that often, they'd pick on each other in ambushes, duals, or battles (aka Planeswalkers' Wars), resulting in the death of any walkers who weren't up-to-par. Yeah, they might be killed off usually, but even then...
Quote from Myznomer »
And lastly, why does nobody like Umezawa? He was crafty and slick, exactly what is needed to keep a character interesting. I wanted him to join the ranks of the real planeswalkers, because that's what god-like characters need. When everyone has insane powers, it is the clever people who win. But we'll never see him, because people were so outraged with Kamigawa.
I like Umezawa. I take it you're referring to Toshiro Umezawa right? He was definitely very "crafty" and "slick," but there's just no evidence to suggest that he has a Planeswalker Spark so... yeah. Basically, you like him and you see him as a cool possibly Planeswalker--which is cool. I could agree with you here. Keep in mind however, that Umezawa's family line continued in Madara on Dominaria, where Myojin of Night's Reach dropped him. His descendant, Tetsuo Umezawa lived on and eventually banished Nicol Bolas, destroying his physical form--though he came back and as a Planeswalker killed Leshrac in the TS Cycle.
---on a side note, I was ticked off when they killed off Leshrac in the Time Spiral Cycle--that was just totally ****ed up, didn't make any sense whatsoever, and was just crafted up to kill of another Planeswalker.
I like Umezawa. I take it you're referring to Toshiro Umezawa right? He was definitely very "crafty" and "slick," but there's just no evidence to suggest that he has a Planeswalker Spark so... yeah. Basically, you like him and you see him as a cool possibly Planeswalker--which is cool. I could agree with you here. Keep in mind however, that Umezawa's family line continued in Madara on Dominaria, where Myojin of Night's Reach dropped him. His descendant, Tetsuo Umezawa lived on and eventually banished Nicol Bolas, destroying his physical form--though he came back and as a Planeswalker killed Leshrac in the TS Cycle.
Oh, see, I haven't read Timespiral yet, so I didn't know about that. I was really hoping for greater things from him, but I guess the current team just wanted to wrap all the loose ends up and start their own stuff.
And while adding new tiers and whatnot is bad, it's only bad if all appear at the same time. So, to know about which levels we are discussing: We have god-walkers: the originals, like Urza; demigod-walkers: my proposal for slightly less powerful walkers, but much closer to the original feeling than the current incarnation; and crap-walkers: the current status quo.
I'm saying that if they create demigods, in an environment which lacks gods, they can possible capture the feeling the old 'walkers without having to deal with their insane power levels.
As to forces greater than the Planeswalkers, I suppose I shouldn't say there is nothing more powerful, but such entities should be few and far between. A Demon, which does not strike me as something that transcends planes, should not have anything to offer a planeswalker. A spirit that somehow embodies a plain (or however you described Gaea as) is impressive and reasonable, because they would be more powerful than the walkers, but the walkers would be able to escape them by going to other planes, thereby allowing for interaction.
And while adding new tiers and whatnot is bad, it's only bad if all appear at the same time. So, to know about which levels we are discussing: We have god-walkers: the originals, like Urza; demigod-walkers: my proposal for slightly less powerful walkers, but much closer to the original feeling than the current incarnation; and crap-walkers: the current status quo.
Stories don't have to center around Planeswalker who are that buff. These were probably some of the most powerful ones in the multiverse at the time. We could just talk about the a mage, warrior, w.e who has just transformed into a Planeswalker and read about his/her exploits and getting used to the semi-phenomenal cosmic power. I don't think we need another level--we got crapwalkers when WoTC tried that.
Okay, I suppose you could look at it like that, with previous uber planeswalkers like Urza being the exception and not the rule. With that in mind, the creative team could just try to focus on less powerful planeswalkers who are still true to the original specifications. Though, from what I heard, they offed a bunch in TS because there were so many planeswalkers, and the stories were suffering from planeswalker inflation (though it still looks like a cheap move to pave the way for planeswalkers as cards).
Okay, I suppose you could look at it like that, with previous uber planeswalkers like Urza being the exception and not the rule. With that in mind, the creative team could just try to focus on less powerful planeswalkers who are still true to the original specifications. Though, from what I heard, they offed a bunch in TS because there were so many planeswalkers, and the stories were suffering from planeswalker inflation (though it still looks like a cheap move to pave the way for planeswalkers as cards).
Agreed. I support this theory...which is probably not a theory, but the truth. Planeswalkers as cards didn't feel right (because your're the Planeswalker) so they dumbed it down into crapwalkers too.
@SpectreEvincar: although it is been said that Urza is the strongest Planeswalker due to his Powerstones, the real strongest Planeswalker is Nicol Bolas. he will just destroy Urza like how he killed Leshrac. i supposed when you are the strongest being in the Multiverse a little faking is not bad enough just to keep things interesting.
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@SpectreEvincar: although it is been said that Urza is the strongest Planeswalker due to his Powerstones, the real strongest Planeswalker is Nicol Bolas. he will just destroy Urza like how he killed Leshrac. i supposed when you are the strongest being in the Multiverse a little faking is not bad enough just to keep things interesting.
I can see why you'd say this. However, I don't think Nicol Bolas is the strongest Planeswalker. Urza has been fighting Phyrexians all his life, created the the PhyrexianOilKillers*(?), the Tolarian Academy, the Bloodlines Project, the Metathran Soldiers, numerous war machines including (possibly) engines such as Draco, Skyship Weatherlight, the Legacy Weapon, the Nine Titans, and has many accomplishments under his belt. He defeated numerous Sleeper Agents, the Yawgmoth Demon Gix, the Phyrexian Sleeper Agent and Lord K'rrick, and stalled the Phyrexian Invasion as a whole, and finally defeated even The Ineffable Yawgmoth.
What does Nicol Bolas have on his resume?
Yeah, he was an Elder Dragon (and possibly the most powerful one of that group), but he was bested by Tetsuo Umezawa (a mortal, and his own champion) and we've seen him only take out Leshrac, Walker of the Night and presumablyMyojin of Night's Reach--though in the TS cycle, I don't think Bolas would have defeated Leshrac so easily(if at all)--I think it was BS-move in order to eliminate another Planeswalker.
We have record of numerous exploits of Urza, but very few of Nicol Bolas. Thus, I would say that it is difficult to say who the stronger Planeswalker is... which is why I have stated that both Urza and Bolas are in the category of the strongest Planeswalkers to have traveled the multiverse. In my personal opinion, due to the extent of accomplishments, I would say, overall, that Urza is the more powerful of the two. Imagine a Bolas v. Yawgmoth match-up...If Bolas was trying to defend Dominaria against a Phyrexian Invasion, I think it is almost certain Bolas would not have triumphed.
First of all, you can put Bolas in Urza's shoes. Bolas isn't really known for fighting for a good cause.
Second, the focus for like HALF or more of all of magic was centered around Urza. Just because he got the limelight necessarily means he's the stronger planeswalker.
Third, I believe Bolas was the first planeswalker ever to be planeswalker. You'd think for someone that has lived and 'walked for as long as he has, you'd have plenty of "accomplishments" too. Yes, we don't have too much to go with, but don't just write him off.
Last, as you said it yourself: it is difficult to compare the two. So, you can't reasonably say that Urza is stronger when we don't have enough "evidence" (I guess you could say) to level out the comparing. I guess.
Also, Urza is dead. Bolas is still alive (as far as I'm concered). Not sure if that sways the "argument" much but yeah.
Urza got his ass handed to him by a couple of Phyrexian Negator's. Bolas would just laugh at them. His laughter would then explode them.
Its funny a few years ago, this kind of love for Urza was unheard of. All of the exploits of which you speak of Urza had the help of several gifted individuals. He also royally screwed up all of them. I don't give Urza alot of credit
I can see why you'd say this. However, I don't think Nicol Bolas is the strongest Planeswalker. Urza has been fighting Phyrexians all his life, created the the PhyrexianOilKillers*(?), the Tolarian Academy, the Bloodlines Project, the Metathran Soldiers, numerous war machines including (possibly) engines such as Draco, Skyship Weatherlight, the Legacy Weapon, the Nine Titans, and has many accomplishments under his belt. He defeated numerous Sleeper Agents, the Yawgmoth Demon Gix, the Phyrexian Sleeper Agent and Lord K'rrick, and stalled the Phyrexian Invasion as a whole, and finally defeated even The Ineffable Yawgmoth.
Well your saying Urza is the strongest by all his inventions. That would put him as the top artificer, and the greatest mind, not powerful.
He did not defeat Gix, he got his ass handed to him by Gix. With the help of Xantcha and Ratepe (sent him somewhere).
Only defeated Yawgmoth by killing himself so...
I love Urza but we need to get things straight. I don't think you can say that any giving one is the most powerful. You could place a few at the top. In a free for all you'd have a different victor after every mêlée.
When we're talking about the most powerful 'walker, we need to define what we're really asking for with respect to what "powerful" means. For example: Who is more powerful: Alexander the Great or Mike Tyson? Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world before he was old enough to buy bear in the U.S. He was a brilliant military strategist. However, if he got in the ring with Mike Tyson he's probably not going to get out again. So if we're talking about sheer power as in "Ima firin mah lazar!", I'd go with Bolas. But if we're weighing in the strengths of the characters without limiting those strengths to just the ability to control mana, then I thought Urza is going to win hands down.
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when we measure who is the strongest it basically comes down to one-on-one match-up between two individuals not by their accomplishments.
i believe a few years ago we have a thread of who is stronger and the first match-up is between Urza and Nicol Bolas and alot of people who replied to that thread are over whelmingly in favor of Nicol Bolas.
i believe hands down that Nicol Bolas is the strongest planeswalker ever.
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Yes, we don't have too much to go with, but don't just write him off.
My bad...I wasn't trying to "write him [Nicol Bolas] off" in any way. I don't think that its any easy decision to make and I'm in NO WAY saying that Urza is definitely stronger! My point is that we don't know all that much about Bolas so we can't just take an example (like him beating the crud outta Leshrac, or that we've haven't much seen him getting beat up) and say that it proves he better than Urza.
First of all, you can put Bolas in Urza's shoes. Bolas isn't really known for fighting for a good cause.
Yes I can. I'm just making/ analyzing a hypothetical situation. Why not? I'm just trying to make a point--and MAYBE EID did a good job of structuring it correctly.
Second, the focus for like HALF or more of all of magic was centered around Urza. Just because he got the limelight necessarily means he's the stronger planeswalker.
Correct. It doesn't. Just because we a lot of the MtG storyline centered around Urza Planeswalker doesn't make him at all the strongest Planeswalker. However, conversely, we don't know how many times Nicol Bolas has engaged in duels/fought on worlds/etc. and since he may the oldest Planeswalker, he may have suffered worse defeats than even Urza back in the day. I'm not using this to suggest that Urza is definitely more powerful or that Bolas is not. I'm just saying that its pretty much downright imposible to know who is the most powerful. Also, If I had to make a judgment, I'd put my money on Urza.
Last, as you said it yourself: it is difficult to compare the two. So, you can't reasonably say that Urza is stronger when we don't have enough "evidence" (I guess you could say) to level out the comparing. I guess.
I can reasonably argue that Urza is stronger--of course I can! We have a lot of information on him and thats what belief is. It doesn't mean its true and I may be completely and utterly wrong--but I can still argue it because I have enough information and details from the novels. After all, Urzahas definitely done a lot of things. We don't know what would happen if Urza dueled against Nicol Bolas--but it seems that a lot of people think that Bolas has a better chance of winning. This is a good opinion and I think that Nicol Bolasmay be able to defeat Urza Planeswalker. However, we don't know if such a duel every happened. Furthermore, Urza has done so many things--that we know of and I would definitely hesitate to say that Bolas is "hands down" the better of the two---without knowing what Bolas has done. I'm just giving my opinion, which is supported by real information that can be found in the MtG books. That's all.
Also, Urza is dead. Bolas is still alive (as far as I'm concered). Not sure if that sways the "argument" much but yeah.
Yeah that's definitely true. But Urza Planeswalker killed The Ineffable Yawgmoth. Thats a pretty big + for "Urza's stronger" and he wasn't actually destroyed. His spark was transferred to Karn (it could have gone to Karn, Gerrard, or even back to Urza) and I believe it was pretty much at random. Thus, the "power" of Urza, in a way, still exists, a long with what's left of the Legacy Weapon inside of Karn. Also, Nicol Bolas is obviously a survivalist while Urza is pretty much a maniac-suicider...so...yeah there's a difference there.
When we're talking about the most powerful 'walker, we need to define what we're really asking for with respect to what "powerful" means.
This is true. What I type up is usually jumbled up and unclear--which it makes it hard for people to understand my point of view sometimes (usually due to time contraints). Basically, a distinct definition for "Planeswalker Power Level" has not been made so that each of us are looking at our own/others' opinions through uniquely different criteria.
So if we're talking about sheer power as in "Ima firin mah lazar!", I'd go with Bolas. But if we're weighing in the strengths of the characters without limiting those strengths to just the ability to control mana, then I thought Urza is going to win hands down.
This is my belief. Wow, MAYBE EID, can you be my official spokesperson? This is exactly what I've been meaning to say.
when we measure who is the strongest it basically comes down to one-on-one match-up between two individuals not by their accomplishments.
Not necessarily. Criteria--again. If your talking about "who is the strongest in a 1-on-1 duel," then I'd give the edge to Nicol Bolas though I keep in mind that with Planeswalkers so powerful as Bolas and Urza, its not easy to just say one side will win---you've got to consider the sheer magnitude of the power here.
I'd like to think that Urza was one of the most intelligent beings in the Multiverse while alive. He fundamentally understood artifacts more than any other being, and had a very solid grasp on magic as well. Karn is almost a repostiory of knowlege, Dominia's Wikipedia. He had to get that somewhere, and I'd guess Urza or his libraries.
Even though I believe that Nicol Bolas is far far stronger than Urza, playing devils advocate, I suppose we really have no gauge of Bolas' Intelligence. He obviously has some idea of complicated magics in his Duel with Leshrac. Still, he hasn't exactly shown Niv-Mizzet like interest in the study of Magic.
So if we gave Urza a boatload of time, say a couple thousand years, perhaps he could develop a way to defeat Bolas without ever being in any danger. If I think about it, perhaps Urza in his power suit would be a match for Bolas. If it can decimate Phyrexia, and leave the wearer somewhat inharmed I'd think it would hurt to bring to a planeswalker duel.
I don't even know if Nicol Bolas could be defeated that easily, I mean the guy doesn't have that many weaknesses. The guy proablably didn't even use all of his power in his battle with Keshrac. Nicol Bolas probably already knew that Leshrac had no chance of winning. But most of all I don't think Nicol Bolas is the kind of person to get in a fight that he doesn't know he was going to win. If Urza even had the potential to beat him, I don't the Nicol would engage him. There are plenty of Worlds in the Multiverse he doesn't NEED any of them.
On another note.
When I look at the New Planeswalkers I can see why someone might dislike them however I also can see why the writers decided to cut them out. Do you notice how every single world ending event is all the Old Planeswalker's fault? For example the Dark age was created by the activation of the Golgothian Sylex, Jeska was the reason Karona was able to suck up all the mana, Teferi almost destroyed the entire multiverse by removing Shiv and Zhalfir. It's the same story over and over again. Planeswalker screws up, results in the destruction of countless lives then has to pick up the pieces and stop something worse from happening. The Magic novels have one reoccurring theme, self sacrifice. Destroying yourself to save the rest of the world, which is exactly what the old Planeswalker's did. It's not like it's that much different than the end of Apocalypse . By removing the overpowered Planeswaker's, whose own power resulted in most catastrophes, the writers have the option to change the reoccurring theme of Magic novels and let them evolve a bit.
On another note.
When I look at the New Planeswalkers I can see why someone might dislike them however I also can see why the writers decided to cut them out. Do you notice how every single world ending event is all the Old Planeswalker's fault? For example the Dark age was created by the activation of the Golgothian Sylex, Jeska was the reason Karona was able to suck up all the mana, Teferi almost destroyed the entire multiverse by removing Shiv and Zhalfir. It's the same story over and over again. Planeswalker screws up, results in the destruction of countless lives then has to pick up the pieces and stop something worse from happening. The Magic novels have one reoccurring theme, self sacrifice. Destroying yourself to save the rest of the world, which is exactly what the old Planeswalker's did. It's not like it's that much different than the end of Apocalypse . By removing the overpowered Planeswaker's, whose own power resulted in most catastrophes, the writers have the option to change the reoccurring theme of Magic novels and let them evolve a bit.
Okay, sorry, but that's just stupid. Here's why:
1 - You are somehow under the impression that because the writers created really powerful characters, the writers have to use them in a certain way. This is completely false. The writers have the ability to come up with whatever storyline they wish to. The fact that the planeswalkers keep blowing everything up isn't because the writers have to handle it that way. It's because they choose to handle it that way. Saying "now that the planeswalkers are gone, the writers are free to write about whatever they want to" is silly. How is eliminating a decades-old traditional Magic archetype doing anything butlimiting what the writers can do?
2 - The Magic novels don't have a self-sacrificial theme. What are you talking about?
* Yes - The Weatherlight Saga (at the end at least)
* Yes - The Time Spiral Cycle
* Sort of - The Mirrodin Cycle (although no one died and it wasn't a main theme)
* No - The Ice Age Cycle
* No - The Johan story
* No - The Madara story
* No - The Otaria Saga
* No - The Kamigawa Cycle
* No - The Ravnica Cycle
* No - The Lorwyn Cycle
That's two storylines that definitely have something to do with personal sacrifice. And to be honest, only Gerrard's, Mirri's, and Urza's sacrifices were notable. And they were definitely not a central theme of the storyline. So the only cycle that had self-sacrifice as a theme was the one that we're currently talking about. So how exactly is that an overaching theme of the entire Magic novel line? Have you read these books?
Sorry, but that particular post is nothing but misinformation, and I don't want any new readers taking it as fact.
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Ummm...well seeing as it's only an opinion it doesn't really matter that much. I mean, I personally see self sacrifice in several of the cycles you mentioned but I guess it depends on how you look at it.
Books are meant to be interpreted differently by different people.
My point was that I think killing off all the planeswalkers wasn't completely unfounded. It wasn't like this was thrust upon us and we didn't have any signs.
There is all this hate towards the new planeswalkers and I just can't seem to get it. Sure the characters are kind of shallow but when I look at them my thought is that they are the first new planeswalkers, that they merely exist for the cards and not for the storyline. My guess would be that we will feel more attachment to new planeswalkers when we actually have a novel that features one of them.
Jace - "Hi, I'm a planeswalker! Wanna play Yu-Gi-Oh?"
Bolas - "That's nice, kid. Your last name isn't Umezawa, is it?"
Jace - "My mommy loves me thiiiiis much." *holds out arms very wide*
Bolas - "Wait, you're not a 'walker. Can you do this?" *creates his own world* *wields an arsenal of mana* *is involved in a plot that requires character depth*
Jace - "I like anime."
Bolas - "... You did say your last name was Umezawa, right?"
I think Rav did have just a bit of sacrifice; Kos sacrifices his personal life (spouse, etc), his life, and his afterlife serving Ravnica and trying to keep peace. But it wasn't a main team, more like a side effect to keep the storyline going.
I don't even know if Nicol Bolas could be defeated that easily, I mean the guy doesn't have that many weaknesses. The guy proablably didn't even use all of his power in his battle with Keshrac. Nicol Bolas probably already knew that Leshrac had no chance of winning. But most of all I don't think Nicol Bolas is the kind of person to get in a fight that he doesn't know he was going to win. If Urza even had the potential to beat him, I don't the Nicol would engage him. There are plenty of Worlds in the Multiverse he doesn't NEED any of them.
No, Bolas would not be able to be defeated "that easily," because he is arguably the strongest Planeswalker to ever have existed. That's not a power that would easily be defeated even if someone as strong as Urza went up against him.
Obviously Bolas was sure he could take on Leshrac--this much was obvious. Besides Bolas being a survivalist and very powerful (etc.), he literally explained that he already knew he could take on Leshrac--especially since he already had in possession the "true" black mana-mask thing of the Myojin of Night's Reach. Additionally, most people would probably say that Bolas was much stronger than Leshrac (unless you're like me and say that Leshrac is the better 'Walker simply because you're a fan of the Walker of the Night).
However, the involvement of Leshrac in the Time Spiral Cycle was ridiculously random. Personally, I think it was all a load of BS...and they only put Leshrac in there to be annihilated by Bolas in order to kill yet another Planeswalker. It was all a scheme--nothing more. Initially, Leshrac's actions seemed quite typical (when comparing them to what he's done before) though later on he just didn't seem to be himself. When he just randomly accepted the trinket from Myojin of Night's Reach I was quite skeptical--didn't make sense to me. I, personally, don't see Bolas's defeat of Leshrac as something to accurately gauge Bolas's power (or Leshrac's for that matter). I'm sure people will disagree with me here--but I just don't believe the Time Spiral Cycle.
But, yeah, Bolas probably wouldn't be to keen on engaging someone as buff as Urza Planeswalker if there was a considerable chance that he (Bolas) would lose--and yes, there is a considerable chance that Bolaswould lose.
As for the rest of what you said--I think Maybe Eid has said enough.
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Yes definitely. I agree with the above statements. However, I do believe that we would see more Archmage Eternals like good old Jodah.
This is true. Nevertheless, the crapwalker would be able to decimate most adversaries. However, I think Jodah would still kick their butts--he was a veritable Planeswalker w/o a spark.
This could be true as Jodah has stood up to planeswalkers. He had such control and power due to being around for such a long time. He dealt with the aspects of color magic and contributed in returning the shard. Also oversaw the school of the unseen so he had all kinds of knowledge involving magic at his fingertips. Not to mention he is a descendant of Urza.
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Then why was Chandra shown running from some measly museum guards in her preview comic? Why was her battle against some animated gargoyles such a climactic event for her?
No, the new 'walkers will not be decimating anything. They are essentially basic mages with a more expanded view on the world (worlds?). I haven't read all the books, but I'm really sad they killed Urza, he was my absolute favorite (I identified with his character a lot). And he was an excellent illustration of how, while immortal, planeswalkers were not free of affliction. His paranoia and obsession combined with his awesome powers and made for interesting reading.
Also, that comment about dealing with a higher power? That should never happen. Planeswalkers should BE the highest power. Even if they're watered down.
It seems that in any continuing franchise, the greatest danger will always be a shift in leadership. I find this most distressing in comics, when one writer decides some character must die, but the next had a special attachment, so they contrive some means of reviving them, but then the next writer kills them because they dislike contrivance. I can only pray that someone will come along to rectify the travesty of what someone referred to as "planescrawlers". I'm not saying they have to bring back god-walkers; but surely they can create something closer to them while avoiding the mistakes of the past (planeswalker inflation, infinite mana; really, I'm just looking for immortality, it makes for much better reading).
And lastly, why does nobody like Umezawa? He was crafty and slick, exactly what is needed to keep a character interesting. I wanted him to join the ranks of the real planeswalkers, because that's what god-like characters need. When everyone has insane powers, it is the clever people who win. But we'll never see him, because people were so outraged with Kamigawa.
Then why was Chandra shown running from some measly museum guards in her preview comic? Why was her battle against some animated gargoyles such a climactic event for her?
No, the new 'walkers will not be decimating anything. They are essentially basic mages with a more expanded view on the world (worlds?). I haven't read all the books, but I'm really sad they killed Urza, he was my absolute favorite (I identified with his character a lot). And he was an excellent illustration of how, while immortal, planeswalkers were not free of affliction. His paranoia and obsession combined with his awesome powers and made for interesting reading.
Also, that comment about dealing with a higher power? That should never happen. Planeswalkers should BE the highest power. Even if they're watered down.
It seems that in any continuing franchise, the greatest danger will always be a shift in leadership. I find this most distressing in comics, when one writer decides some character must die, but the next had a special attachment, so they contrive some means of reviving them, but then the next writer kills them because they dislike contrivance. I can only pray that someone will come along to rectify the travesty of what someone referred to as "planescrawlers". I'm not saying they have to bring back god-walkers; but surely they can create something closer to them while avoiding the mistakes of the past (planeswalker inflation, infinite mana; really, I'm just looking for immortality, it makes for much better reading).
And lastly, why does nobody like Umezawa? He was crafty and slick, exactly what is needed to keep a character interesting. I wanted him to join the ranks of the real planeswalkers, because that's what god-like characters need. When everyone has insane powers, it is the clever people who win. But we'll never see him, because people were so outraged with Kamigawa.
Please refrain from double posting. In the future, if you want to add something, use the edit button on your last post.
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Couldn't have said it better myself...I haven't read any preview comics about the crapwalkers because...they're...well...crap (the crapwalkers and the comics). The crapwalkers are just wizards. Yes, they're powerful wizards that should be able to handle themselves...but they have the same limitation as normal mages as well. They can't willing shapeshift all the damn time. They feel tired. They're bodies and undoubtedly physical. They don't have infinite mana sources. There's also a variable power level just like with anything else--some crapwalkers are stronger than others and some are more warrior-like while other may be more mage-like. I wouldn't say they're all basic mages, though I'm sure a large number of crapwalkers are. exactly that.
Yeah, Urza is da bomb. I was definitely unhappy when he died in the novel Apocalypse as part of the Invasion Cycle. He was a great examples of a real Planeswalker. They called him Urza Planeswalker didn't they? I also identified with him.
Yeah, I'm not sure about this. There are only a few characters that have a higher power level that the average Planeswalker (crapwalker not included). For example, you have Gaea--who/which has been described as the "world spirit" of the plane of Dominaria--not sure exactly. Yawgmoth seems to think that she is Rebbecc...not sure (again). Maybe O-Kagachi? Yeah there's hasn't been enough material to clear this up. The tier system (aka. people-mages-planeswalker-blah blah) hasn't help me make sense of it all yet, though I haven't had time to give it much thought lately.
Ah, shifts in leadership...
Yeah, actually, I'd rather have the god-walkers. I DON'T want something in-between crapwalkers and Planeswalkers. Then there'll be a third level. NOOOOOOO! I just wish they'd get the old Planeswalkers back. If a new one needed to be introduced, WoTC should just put him/her in the universe--doesn't have to be someone at the power level of Urza, Taysir, Nicol Bolas, Freyalise, or whatever. There are plenty of old Planeswalkers that were not extremely powerful and it has been made clear that often, they'd pick on each other in ambushes, duals, or battles (aka Planeswalkers' Wars), resulting in the death of any walkers who weren't up-to-par. Yeah, they might be killed off usually, but even then...
I like Umezawa. I take it you're referring to Toshiro Umezawa right? He was definitely very "crafty" and "slick," but there's just no evidence to suggest that he has a Planeswalker Spark so... yeah. Basically, you like him and you see him as a cool possibly Planeswalker--which is cool. I could agree with you here. Keep in mind however, that Umezawa's family line continued in Madara on Dominaria, where Myojin of Night's Reach dropped him. His descendant, Tetsuo Umezawa lived on and eventually banished Nicol Bolas, destroying his physical form--though he came back and as a Planeswalker killed Leshrac in the TS Cycle.
---on a side note, I was ticked off when they killed off Leshrac in the Time Spiral Cycle--that was just totally ****ed up, didn't make any sense whatsoever, and was just crafted up to kill of another Planeswalker.
Oh, see, I haven't read Timespiral yet, so I didn't know about that. I was really hoping for greater things from him, but I guess the current team just wanted to wrap all the loose ends up and start their own stuff.
And while adding new tiers and whatnot is bad, it's only bad if all appear at the same time. So, to know about which levels we are discussing: We have god-walkers: the originals, like Urza; demigod-walkers: my proposal for slightly less powerful walkers, but much closer to the original feeling than the current incarnation; and crap-walkers: the current status quo.
I'm saying that if they create demigods, in an environment which lacks gods, they can possible capture the feeling the old 'walkers without having to deal with their insane power levels.
As to forces greater than the Planeswalkers, I suppose I shouldn't say there is nothing more powerful, but such entities should be few and far between. A Demon, which does not strike me as something that transcends planes, should not have anything to offer a planeswalker. A spirit that somehow embodies a plain (or however you described Gaea as) is impressive and reasonable, because they would be more powerful than the walkers, but the walkers would be able to escape them by going to other planes, thereby allowing for interaction.
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I see what you're saying. But why do we need another tier? Why can't we just have regular Planeswalkers. Urza Planeswalker was arguably the most powerful Planeswalker (there were only a few serious contenders for that title: Taysir, Freyalise, Tevash Szat, Lord Windgrace, (Captain) Bo Levar, Commodore Guff, and Nicol Bolas, etc).
Stories don't have to center around Planeswalker who are that buff. These were probably some of the most powerful ones in the multiverse at the time. We could just talk about the a mage, warrior, w.e who has just transformed into a Planeswalker and read about his/her exploits and getting used to the semi-phenomenal cosmic power. I don't think we need another level--we got crapwalkers when WoTC tried that.
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Agreed. I support this theory...which is probably not a theory, but the truth. Planeswalkers as cards didn't feel right (because your're the Planeswalker) so they dumbed it down into crapwalkers too.
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I can see why you'd say this. However, I don't think Nicol Bolas is the strongest Planeswalker. Urza has been fighting Phyrexians all his life, created the the PhyrexianOilKillers*(?), the Tolarian Academy, the Bloodlines Project, the Metathran Soldiers, numerous war machines including (possibly) engines such as Draco, Skyship Weatherlight, the Legacy Weapon, the Nine Titans, and has many accomplishments under his belt. He defeated numerous Sleeper Agents, the Yawgmoth Demon Gix, the Phyrexian Sleeper Agent and Lord K'rrick, and stalled the Phyrexian Invasion as a whole, and finally defeated even The Ineffable Yawgmoth.
What does Nicol Bolas have on his resume?
Yeah, he was an Elder Dragon (and possibly the most powerful one of that group), but he was bested by Tetsuo Umezawa (a mortal, and his own champion) and we've seen him only take out Leshrac, Walker of the Night and presumably Myojin of Night's Reach--though in the TS cycle, I don't think Bolas would have defeated Leshrac so easily(if at all)--I think it was BS-move in order to eliminate another Planeswalker.
We have record of numerous exploits of Urza, but very few of Nicol Bolas. Thus, I would say that it is difficult to say who the stronger Planeswalker is... which is why I have stated that both Urza and Bolas are in the category of the strongest Planeswalkers to have traveled the multiverse. In my personal opinion, due to the extent of accomplishments, I would say, overall, that Urza is the more powerful of the two. Imagine a Bolas v. Yawgmoth match-up...If Bolas was trying to defend Dominaria against a Phyrexian Invasion, I think it is almost certain Bolas would not have triumphed.
First of all, you can put Bolas in Urza's shoes. Bolas isn't really known for fighting for a good cause.
Second, the focus for like HALF or more of all of magic was centered around Urza. Just because he got the limelight necessarily means he's the stronger planeswalker.
Third, I believe Bolas was the first planeswalker ever to be planeswalker. You'd think for someone that has lived and 'walked for as long as he has, you'd have plenty of "accomplishments" too. Yes, we don't have too much to go with, but don't just write him off.
Last, as you said it yourself: it is difficult to compare the two. So, you can't reasonably say that Urza is stronger when we don't have enough "evidence" (I guess you could say) to level out the comparing. I guess.
Also, Urza is dead. Bolas is still alive (as far as I'm concered). Not sure if that sways the "argument" much but yeah.
Its funny a few years ago, this kind of love for Urza was unheard of. All of the exploits of which you speak of Urza had the help of several gifted individuals. He also royally screwed up all of them. I don't give Urza alot of credit
Well your saying Urza is the strongest by all his inventions. That would put him as the top artificer, and the greatest mind, not powerful.
He did not defeat Gix, he got his ass handed to him by Gix. With the help of Xantcha and Ratepe (sent him somewhere).
Only defeated Yawgmoth by killing himself so...
I love Urza but we need to get things straight. I don't think you can say that any giving one is the most powerful. You could place a few at the top. In a free for all you'd have a different victor after every mêlée.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Anyway, I think we can agree that, whomever your favorite planeswalker is, the new ones don't compare.
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When we're talking about the most powerful 'walker, we need to define what we're really asking for with respect to what "powerful" means. For example: Who is more powerful: Alexander the Great or Mike Tyson? Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world before he was old enough to buy bear in the U.S. He was a brilliant military strategist. However, if he got in the ring with Mike Tyson he's probably not going to get out again. So if we're talking about sheer power as in "Ima firin mah lazar!", I'd go with Bolas. But if we're weighing in the strengths of the characters without limiting those strengths to just the ability to control mana, then I thought Urza is going to win hands down.
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i believe a few years ago we have a thread of who is stronger and the first match-up is between Urza and Nicol Bolas and alot of people who replied to that thread are over whelmingly in favor of Nicol Bolas.
i believe hands down that Nicol Bolas is the strongest planeswalker ever.
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I've said if before, and you guys have said it too: we can't know for sure.
Anyway, for what its worth, my pick's still Urza Planeswalker.
My bad...I wasn't trying to "write him [Nicol Bolas] off" in any way. I don't think that its any easy decision to make and I'm in NO WAY saying that Urza is definitely stronger! My point is that we don't know all that much about Bolas so we can't just take an example (like him beating the crud outta Leshrac, or that we've haven't much seen him getting beat up) and say that it proves he better than Urza.
Yes I can. I'm just making/ analyzing a hypothetical situation. Why not? I'm just trying to make a point--and MAYBE EID did a good job of structuring it correctly.
Correct. It doesn't. Just because we a lot of the MtG storyline centered around Urza Planeswalker doesn't make him at all the strongest Planeswalker. However, conversely, we don't know how many times Nicol Bolas has engaged in duels/fought on worlds/etc. and since he may the oldest Planeswalker, he may have suffered worse defeats than even Urza back in the day. I'm not using this to suggest that Urza is definitely more powerful or that Bolas is not. I'm just saying that its pretty much downright imposible to know who is the most powerful. Also, If I had to make a judgment, I'd put my money on Urza.
I can reasonably argue that Urza is stronger--of course I can! We have a lot of information on him and thats what belief is. It doesn't mean its true and I may be completely and utterly wrong--but I can still argue it because I have enough information and details from the novels. After all, Urza has definitely done a lot of things. We don't know what would happen if Urza dueled against Nicol Bolas--but it seems that a lot of people think that Bolas has a better chance of winning. This is a good opinion and I think that Nicol Bolas may be able to defeat Urza Planeswalker. However, we don't know if such a duel every happened. Furthermore, Urza has done so many things--that we know of and I would definitely hesitate to say that Bolas is "hands down" the better of the two---without knowing what Bolas has done. I'm just giving my opinion, which is supported by real information that can be found in the MtG books. That's all.
Yeah that's definitely true. But Urza Planeswalker killed The Ineffable Yawgmoth. Thats a pretty big + for "Urza's stronger" and he wasn't actually destroyed. His spark was transferred to Karn (it could have gone to Karn, Gerrard, or even back to Urza) and I believe it was pretty much at random. Thus, the "power" of Urza, in a way, still exists, a long with what's left of the Legacy Weapon inside of Karn. Also, Nicol Bolas is obviously a survivalist while Urza is pretty much a maniac-suicider...so...yeah there's a difference there.
This is true. What I type up is usually jumbled up and unclear--which it makes it hard for people to understand my point of view sometimes (usually due to time contraints). Basically, a distinct definition for "Planeswalker Power Level" has not been made so that each of us are looking at our own/others' opinions through uniquely different criteria.
This is my belief. Wow, MAYBE EID, can you be my official spokesperson? This is exactly what I've been meaning to say.
Not necessarily. Criteria--again. If your talking about "who is the strongest in a 1-on-1 duel," then I'd give the edge to Nicol Bolas though I keep in mind that with Planeswalkers so powerful as Bolas and Urza, its not easy to just say one side will win---you've got to consider the sheer magnitude of the power here.
K. Good opinion. I'm not gonna disprove it--simply because I can't--though I'll still argue that Urza Planeswalker is the overall more powerful.
Even though I believe that Nicol Bolas is far far stronger than Urza, playing devils advocate, I suppose we really have no gauge of Bolas' Intelligence. He obviously has some idea of complicated magics in his Duel with Leshrac. Still, he hasn't exactly shown Niv-Mizzet like interest in the study of Magic.
So if we gave Urza a boatload of time, say a couple thousand years, perhaps he could develop a way to defeat Bolas without ever being in any danger. If I think about it, perhaps Urza in his power suit would be a match for Bolas. If it can decimate Phyrexia, and leave the wearer somewhat inharmed I'd think it would hurt to bring to a planeswalker duel.
On another note.
When I look at the New Planeswalkers I can see why someone might dislike them however I also can see why the writers decided to cut them out. Do you notice how every single world ending event is all the Old Planeswalker's fault? For example the Dark age was created by the activation of the Golgothian Sylex, Jeska was the reason Karona was able to suck up all the mana, Teferi almost destroyed the entire multiverse by removing Shiv and Zhalfir. It's the same story over and over again. Planeswalker screws up, results in the destruction of countless lives then has to pick up the pieces and stop something worse from happening. The Magic novels have one reoccurring theme, self sacrifice. Destroying yourself to save the rest of the world, which is exactly what the old Planeswalker's did. It's not like it's that much different than the end of Apocalypse . By removing the overpowered Planeswaker's, whose own power resulted in most catastrophes, the writers have the option to change the reoccurring theme of Magic novels and let them evolve a bit.
Okay, sorry, but that's just stupid. Here's why:
1 - You are somehow under the impression that because the writers created really powerful characters, the writers have to use them in a certain way. This is completely false. The writers have the ability to come up with whatever storyline they wish to. The fact that the planeswalkers keep blowing everything up isn't because the writers have to handle it that way. It's because they choose to handle it that way. Saying "now that the planeswalkers are gone, the writers are free to write about whatever they want to" is silly. How is eliminating a decades-old traditional Magic archetype doing anything butlimiting what the writers can do?
2 - The Magic novels don't have a self-sacrificial theme. What are you talking about?
* Yes - The Weatherlight Saga (at the end at least)
* Yes - The Time Spiral Cycle
* Sort of - The Mirrodin Cycle (although no one died and it wasn't a main theme)
* No - The Ice Age Cycle
* No - The Johan story
* No - The Madara story
* No - The Otaria Saga
* No - The Kamigawa Cycle
* No - The Ravnica Cycle
* No - The Lorwyn Cycle
That's two storylines that definitely have something to do with personal sacrifice. And to be honest, only Gerrard's, Mirri's, and Urza's sacrifices were notable. And they were definitely not a central theme of the storyline. So the only cycle that had self-sacrifice as a theme was the one that we're currently talking about. So how exactly is that an overaching theme of the entire Magic novel line? Have you read these books?
Sorry, but that particular post is nothing but misinformation, and I don't want any new readers taking it as fact.
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Books are meant to be interpreted differently by different people.
My point was that I think killing off all the planeswalkers wasn't completely unfounded. It wasn't like this was thrust upon us and we didn't have any signs.
There is all this hate towards the new planeswalkers and I just can't seem to get it. Sure the characters are kind of shallow but when I look at them my thought is that they are the first new planeswalkers, that they merely exist for the cards and not for the storyline. My guess would be that we will feel more attachment to new planeswalkers when we actually have a novel that features one of them.
hahahahaha funny!
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No, Bolas would not be able to be defeated "that easily," because he is arguably the strongest Planeswalker to ever have existed. That's not a power that would easily be defeated even if someone as strong as Urza went up against him.
Obviously Bolas was sure he could take on Leshrac--this much was obvious. Besides Bolas being a survivalist and very powerful (etc.), he literally explained that he already knew he could take on Leshrac--especially since he already had in possession the "true" black mana-mask thing of the Myojin of Night's Reach. Additionally, most people would probably say that Bolas was much stronger than Leshrac (unless you're like me and say that Leshrac is the better 'Walker simply because you're a fan of the Walker of the Night).
However, the involvement of Leshrac in the Time Spiral Cycle was ridiculously random. Personally, I think it was all a load of BS...and they only put Leshrac in there to be annihilated by Bolas in order to kill yet another Planeswalker. It was all a scheme--nothing more. Initially, Leshrac's actions seemed quite typical (when comparing them to what he's done before) though later on he just didn't seem to be himself. When he just randomly accepted the trinket from Myojin of Night's Reach I was quite skeptical--didn't make sense to me. I, personally, don't see Bolas's defeat of Leshrac as something to accurately gauge Bolas's power (or Leshrac's for that matter). I'm sure people will disagree with me here--but I just don't believe the Time Spiral Cycle.
But, yeah, Bolas probably wouldn't be to keen on engaging someone as buff as Urza Planeswalker if there was a considerable chance that he (Bolas) would lose--and yes, there is a considerable chance that Bolas would lose.
As for the rest of what you said--I think Maybe Eid has said enough.