From Matt Cavotta's article last week on the nephilim and the cult of yore, there are probably still some entities that remember what ravnica looked like before the city, yes.
About the Guildpact, the part in the book where the goblins mentioned building flaws into the city of Ravnica, thus the Guildpact weakening over time.. Is this being relegated to a myth then?
And about the time thing... I would think, from the "Rift" mentioned in guildpact, that they do have the ability to slow time, at least. If Urza could pull it off in Time Streams (with a relatively small campus) then it would make sense that they could do it, too. Look at the flavor text for telling time, for example. However, their powers could always be overstated.
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Is the Nephilim the Gruul fight in the beginning of Guildpact a particular one? The cards themselves aren't Legendary, thus it seems there could be many different kinds. Is it one of the cards, if so, which one in particular?
What exactly is the difference between a Gruul and a Rakdos?
I can only guess before Cory himself answers, but from the descriptions from the novel, the first one could have been the Yore-Tiller /described as a pile of junk/, and the second one could have been Witch-Maw.
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Gruul is a combination that relies on impulse and instincts. in other words, they dont mean to cause chaos, but when an entire nation of people act only on first thoughts and impressions, chaos ensues. It is because of this that they seem like simple chaotic clans.
Rakdos, RB, worships chaos as an ideal. They would worship the power of demons and evil, and love the power of destructoin. Their actions are designed to create chaos, for no other purpose.
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i like loran16's description of the Gruul and Rakdos.
I'd like to add as well on what I think the nature of the Rakdos would be. Comparing Rakdos to the Dimir might help describing the former. Dimir wants to be in control, to be on top, to have everyone conform to its way of thinking. Its method of attack however is behind the shadows, masked in secrecy, when everyone least expects it. The Rakdos, I think, has the same ambitions as that of Dimir but in comparison is much, much less patient than the Blue/Black guild. Its method of attack is much more dramatic and out into the open. Its enemies would know of its coming attack but then again the Rakdos wouldn't have it any other way.
It's mentioned in the flavor text for Quicken that "A skilled Izzet chronarch can carry out an epic vendetta between the fall of one hourglass grain and the next."
Can they just make things move faster or slower, or can they actually time travel? And if so, could they concievably go back in time to meddle with history (like maybe cause the Guildpact never to be signed) or go to the future to gain more knowledge?
All I know is, they're all currently in the year 7,333 Z.C. attending ChronarchCon XVII. Exchanging trade secrets, checking out the latest in temporal manipulation methods, drinking bumbat, blowing all their zinos (adjusted for temporal inflation) on Chrono-strippers.
Or...it's entirely possible that the chronarchs are one of those things that I did not create, so the limits of their abilities are something I can't establish with any certainty. But I will hazard a guess, knowing the Izzet—they would probably be employed to carry out vendettas and other missions, but the Guildpact would prevent them from really doing anything that would disrupt the relative harmony on Ravnica. The further you travel back in time, the stronger the Guildpact would be. And the GP itself would find a way to keep the Chronarch(s) in question from going back beyond the signing. In theory, at least.
As to whether they're mucking about in the future...not sure. It's the future. The hypotheses on this thread are all quite plausible, though, near as I can tell.
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I'v been wondering, but how good are these books, I haven't faound many of them good
I loved them. Much better than Cats. I'm going to read them again and again.
They're so good you should buy at least ten copies of each Ravnica book to distribute among your friends and family, and encourage them to do the same. It's part of a little program I like to call "CorWay."
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Definately, but [Oblivion] is beginning to worry me - a lot of stuff is being removed from Morrowind that is dissapointing me. Off the top of my head - no spears, no enchanting (unless you're in the Mage Guild, and and even then someone else makes it for you), clothing and small items don't really have shadows like they did in the early video, those wonderful trees are Vampire Trees (will not reflect in water)... there's tons more than I'm forgetting.
I'm still holding out hope—it is Bethesda, after all. They might manage to pull some of that back into the mix. Besides, I pre-ordered. I have to hope.
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A few other questions...
1) Does the Guildpact protect the Gruul? Cavotta mentions not, but I think it'd be interesting if the Guildpact itself understands the need for a destroy-everything group of people, and prevents the other Guilds from purging them entirely.
That's pretty close to how I see it working. The Gruul's current status as just-this-side-of-guildless could well be a sign of the Guildpact's age, and/or its flexibility.
2) Speaking of Destroy Everything guilds, how could/did the more chaotic pre-Guilds (Gruul, Rakdos come to mind) agree to such an orderly system that became the Guildpact?
The "chaotic" clans that became those guilds had been pretty soundly knocked about before the signing, and weren't in the best position to negotiate--and their leaders were convinced the Guildpact would be the way to go, since it enshrined their rights to be who and what they were, rather than face the likelihood of being wiped out. And understand, too, that even the chaotic types had been fighting for centuries. Even they might have welcomed a break in the incessant war that was the way of life on pre-GP Ravnica.
3) You mentioned earlier that the Orzhov were likely ancestor-worshippers pre-Guildpact, but had you conceived how each Pre-Guild group acted? It would seem hard for me to picture brainy Pre-Izzets fighting wars.
Sure the could, and did--they turned their brains toward brainy ways to destroy others. True, they were not often on the front lines, but they would have been equipping those who were.
I have a general idea how each guild (or clan, or caste, or whatever you want to call the pre-GP groups) behaved before the signing. In general, their values and abilities weren't that different than they are now, however.
4) I'm having trouble wrapping my head around a completely urban plane. Would Ravnicans know what simple groundsoil is? Grass? I didn't know how to picture some of the settings in Guildpact's novel, they certainly didn't feel like hustling-bustling city area.
Utvara (the main setting of Guildpact) is a reclamation zone, it's not supposed to be hustling and bustling--not quite yet. However, it is built upon layers of earlier construction. Reclamations zones are as close as anything comes to wilderness, and even so, you've got Gruul, miners, townsfolk, and others there already.
As for grass, soil, water, etc....You seen Jurassic Park? "Life...finds a way." Ravnicans see grass--tough, scrappy grass--growing wherever it can take purchase. There are trees, and parks of sorts. There are floating gardens (a lot of the terrain we Earthlings take for granted floats in one way or another on Ravnica). The Selesnyans ensure that trees do not go extinct, those trees and wild zeppelids help keep the atmosphere clean enough to breathe.
Real farming is largely an underground (or at least, undercity) way of life. The actual surface of Ravnica is rarely, if ever, seen...and when it is, it is often in the form of something like the Cauldron, as volcanoes burn their way through the urban layers.
There are "seas" and "lakes" that primarily float as well. And the polar caps are two areas where the urban sprawl just barely fits the definition, and mostly takes the form of huge Izzet structures designed to melt and distribute the water trapped there to the rest of the plane.
5) Is the "Ravnica was supposed to be a gift to the Izzet but some Goblins screwed it up" story mentioned in the novel true, or a sort of "This is why our Guild is the best" story? It would seem that way to me.
Those are both good hypotheses...
6) How "legit" are the Orzhov w.r.t. trading and stuff? It's easy to paint them as "would make you pay 100 dollars for 2 dollars worth of stuff", but such a thing would be extremely bad for business in the long term. Would you typically expect a fair deal, a quasi-fair deal, or a total-screwage from an everyday business dealing with an Orzhov?
They make it their business to control as much of the economy as possible. They're smart enough to know that keeping potential customers in poverty is not something that can last, in the long term. It doesn't make sense. Instead of extorting every last zib you've got, they're more likely to demand a portion of your soul (sometimes, literally). To them, loyalty is almost as valuable as money. And loyal Orzhov help them maintain their hold on the economy, even though there are other guilds (Azorius, for one) with an interest in that economy.
And man, I hope that doesn't contradict something I've already said.
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Is the Nephilim the Gruul fight in the beginning of Guildpact a particular one? The cards themselves aren't Legendary, thus it seems there could be many different kinds. Is it one of the cards, if so, which one in particular?
Er...it's the one that looks like it's made of junk, dirt, and meat?
Actually, I did not have a particular card in mind with that particular nephilim. The nephilim concept actually came along after I'd created that monster, and it seemed to fit perfectly into that idea, so in this case it became a nephilim retroactively.
That was my editor's idea. She's very smart.
What exactly is the difference between a Gruul and a Rakdos?
There are plenty of differences, chief among them being that the Gruul practice nature-based spirituality and magic and the Rakdos would just as soon torch everything and eat it, not necessarily in that order. The Gruul believe in the essential chaotic behavior of life, the Rakdos in the chaos of carnage. The Rakdos worship a demon lord, the Gruul worship life and death, in their way. And the Rakdos tend to burrow into the most densely populated areas and keep their centers of power there, while the Gruul are more scattered and factionalized.
You'd be well-advised to speak loudly and carry a big bam-stick when dealing with either one.
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Forgot one (half-joke) question:
Is it a bad thing if I think of the Orzhov when I listen to Jesus He knows Me by Genesis (or Phil Collins, I dunno)?
I think it's a bad thing to listen to anything even tangentially related to Phil Collins, whatever you're thinking.
Quote from Bad Luck »
From Matt Cavotta's article last week on the nephilim and the cult of yore, there are probably still some entities that remember what ravnica looked like before the city, yes.
I haven't read Matt's article, but I can name a few offhand--Niv-Mizzet, the demon Rakdos, and any other surviving Paruns.
About the Guildpact, the part in the book where the goblins mentioned building flaws into the city of Ravnica, thus the Guildpact weakening over time.. Is this being relegated to a myth then?
One goblin's myth is another goblin's history...or maybe I'm thinking of monkey myths, like the one about the typewriters and Shakespeare...
Quote from Caranthir »
I can only guess before Cory himself answers, but from the descriptions from the novel, the first one could have been the Yore-Tiller /described as a pile of junk/, and the second one could have been Witch-Maw.
Could be. What do they look like?
Quote from loran16 »
Gruul is a combination that relies on impulse and instincts. in other words, they dont mean to cause chaos, but when an entire nation of people act only on first thoughts and impressions, chaos ensues. It is because of this that they seem like simple chaotic clans.
Rakdos, RB, worships chaos as an ideal. They would worship the power of demons and evil, and love the power of destructoin. Their actions are designed to create chaos, for no other purpose.
Wow, that's so much more philosophical than my answer. I like it. The Gruul do mean to cause chaos, as a way of perpetuating life--think of them as an intentionally set forest fire that results in an even stronger ecosphere. Unfortunately for them, the rest of the guilds don't necessarily agree, and these days they don't have as much of a chance to practice their philosophies as they'd like.
Quote from acolyte of Night »
i like loran16's description of the Gruul and Rakdos.
I'd like to add as well on what I think the nature of the Rakdos would be. Comparing Rakdos to the Dimir might help describing the former. Dimir wants to be in control, to be on top, to have everyone conform to its way of thinking. Its method of attack however is behind the shadows, masked in secrecy, when everyone least expects it. The Rakdos, I think, has the same ambitions as that of Dimir but in comparison is much, much less patient than the Blue/Black guild. Its method of attack is much more dramatic and out into the open. Its enemies would know of its coming attack but then again the Rakdos wouldn't have it any other way.
I like this one this one too. You guys have to get out of my brain, there's only so much room in there and if you keep knocking about you're going to dislodge some of the Simpsons trivia.
And finally, some news related to some of the earlier topics in the thread... I'm playing in a sealed booster tournament at work over the next few (few dozen?) lunch breaks. 3 Ravnica boosters, 3 Guildpact boosters, and whatever basic lands you want pulled from a big pool.
I'll let you know how I do. I'm guardedly optimistic, my second foil was Agrus Kos.
I see your into comics, reading walking dead and such. are there any others you read, like superhero wise? any favorite story arcs?
Let's see...I buy a lot of comics, but off the top of my head and in no particular order: I've been reading the Luna Bros.' Girls (after reading the Ultra trade) and it's been a lot of fun...sort of a zombie apocalypse story crossed with an alien invasion story, all wrapped up in naked ladies (tastefully represented). Y: the Last Man is fantastic. I read Fables (brilliant every issue--I even dug the Bigby-fighting-Nazis story), Powers (and most other Bendis, though Spider-Woman and New Avengers are getting on my nerves a bit), most of the Ultimate line, Punisher, Gotham Central (or at least, I used to), Daredevil, Green Lantern (and I'm planning to pick up Ion), I'm trying to read Infinite Crisis without reading any of the background material (which is a challenge), all of the "616" Spider-Man books (though those have also been getting on my nerves now and then), Marvel Team-Up, Invincible (if you like superheroes even a little bit, read this book NOW. Start with the trades if you can), and since he obviously grew up on teh same comics I did, Dan Slott's She-Hulk, the Thing, and Great Lakes Avengers. I mean, Great Lakes X-Men. I'm digging the new Transformers comics (the really new ones--the most recent "new" Transformers comics got way too complicated to follow). The Battle Royale manga is a hell of a read, too, albeit not for everyone (and definitely, perhaps ironically, NOT FOR KIDS). Also--Hellboy/BPRD, The Goon, and a vampire pirate (vampirate?) book called Sea of Red. I also get all of the DH Star Wars comics, Marvels SW was my childhood obsession and I guess I just can't let go. I'm enjoying their new KotOR series a lot, and I have high hopes for that new one (Legacy, I think?) that's set 100 years or so after RotJ.
I'm sure I'm leaving some things out. It's easier to name my favorite writers. I'm really into Brubaker, Bendis (sometimes), Ellis (always), Ennis (almost always), Alan Moore (when he's not tripping the philosophical fantastic *too* much), Brian K. Vaughan (which reminds me--read Ex Machina!), Slott, and anything written by Robert Kirkman.
But the comic I'm anticipating more than anything I've anticipated, like, ever? Essential Godzilla. I've ordered 3 copies for my box at Seattle's finest comic shop, the Comics Dungeon on 45th. Marvel's Godzilla was teh first comic I ever collected, and now I can finally inflict it on my nephews. If you're at all interested in the giant monsters and/or SHIELD and/or Bronze Age Marvel weirdness, you should pick it up.
I like this one this one too. You guys have to get out of my brain, there's only so much room in there and if you keep knocking about you're going to dislodge some of the Simpsons trivia.
Meh, IT NEEDS TO BE REPLACED BY FAMILY GUY AND FUTURAMA TRIVIA. NOW! (well, older simpson's episodes can stay).
On a side note, i completly forgot about the nature side of the gruul. Huh.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
But the comic I'm anticipating more than anything I've anticipated, like, ever? Essential Godzilla. I've ordered 3 copies for my box at Seattle's finest comic shop, the Comics Dungeon on 45th. Marvel's Godzilla was teh first comic I ever collected, and now I can finally inflict it on my nephews. If you're at all interested in the giant monsters and/or SHIELD and/or Bronze Age Marvel weirdness, you should pick it up.
CJH
i actually want to pick up essential godzilla, but lack of funds and way to get to the comic shops (read im still getting used to driving) prevents me from getting near there any time soon.
you said you been reading the new infinity crisis. like i said before, a lack of funds and way to get to the shops have prevented me from reading all of these so ive been reading summaries from websites. from a fan point of view what do you think of the reason why jason todd was brought back and the messed up doom patrol orgins. if you didnt get that yet ill put it in spoiler tags for you
superboy prime was hitting the walls of the timestream
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I can't afford comics, it would get in the way my magic habit!
Matt Cavotta's article is here - I like the concept of it quite a bit. And hey! It's got pretty pictures of the nephelim too. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mc27
In retrospect, I'd love to have his job. You know, there's a guy who works for George Lucas whose main job is explaining continuity? siiigh.
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This had me wondering: are there any guilds (in your mind, anyway) which are more tolerated than others? Obviously the Gruul are outcast, and I'm guessing the Cult of Rakdos too, but are there any who all the others tolerate? Personally, I see the Izzet and Simic as being the most tolerated, as their goals are more detached from society.
All of the guilds tolerate each other in a way. I guess I'm not quite sure what you mean. There are guilds that definitely get along better than others--the Selesnya, Azorius, Orzhov and Boros all tend to share similar goals--an orderly society protected by the Guildpact--but their methods are very different.
Neither of those nephilim were the junk-monster in Guildpact, now that I look at them.
Quote from loran16 »
Meh, IT NEEDS TO BE REPLACED BY FAMILY GUY AND FUTURAMA TRIVIA. NOW! (well, older simpson's episodes can stay).
On a side note, i completly forgot about the nature side of the gruul. Huh.
And you forgot that someone can hold many different varieties of trivia in one's head simultaneously.
If there were any justice in this universe Futurama would have taken over the Simpsons' time slot and Homer, Marge, and the rest would have been allowed to gracefully retire. Instead, Fox seems determined to milk every last dollar they can from the show. There are still shining moments of brilliance on the Simpsons, but nothing that can compare with the Monorail episode, "Bring back Sheriff Lobo," Sideshow's Bob's one-man HMS Pinafore or Hank Scorpio.
Quote from i_am_a_badman »
i actually want to pick up essential godzilla, but lack of funds and way to get to the comic shops (read im still getting used to driving) prevents me from getting near there any time soon.
you said you been reading the new infinity crisis. like i said before, a lack of funds and way to get to the shops have prevented me from reading all of these so ive been reading summaries from websites. from a fan point of view what do you think of the reason why jason todd was brought back and the messed up doom patrol orgins. if you didnt get that yet ill put it in spoiler tags for you
Man, I wish I could have resisted clicking on that.
If you can scrape up the funds, I still recommend getting Essential Godzilla. I hear it's a one-time deal with Toho (who own the rights, and yanked them from Marvel way back in the day) and there will only be one printing.
Quote from Bad Luck »
My god, waaaaay too much comic geekdom there.
I can't afford comics, it would get in the way my magic habit!
Matt Cavotta's article is here - I like the concept of it quite a bit. And hey! It's got pretty pictures of the nephelim too. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mc27
In retrospect, I'd love to have his job. You know, there's a guy who works for George Lucas whose main job is explaining continuity? siiigh.
There is no such thing as too much comic geekdom, unless you're on a date. And if you're on a date with a comic geek, even that doesn't apply. No way I'm going to try to talk you out of a Magic habit, though.
Personally, I'd rather create the continuity than manage it any day. Managing continuity is really not easy. It sounds fun, but I imagine it's a very difficult job just from my own efforts to maintain continuity over three books. Matt's a braver man than me.
Sorry, I didn't word my question very well (though I got a bonus answer out of it ;)). What I meant was, are there any guilds who everyone gets on with?
No guilds are without enemies. They all get along by law, but there's always at least one guild that diametrically opposes each other guild in philosophy and sometimes in practice.
Generally speaking, most citizens get along with the Boros, for example. But the Dimir doesn't get along with them at all. Most citizens appreciate having safe roads and fresh food, too, but the Selesnyans and Golgari also have enemies (including each other, in some cases).
No guilds are without enemies. They all get along by law, but there's always at least one guild that diametrically opposes each other guild in philosophy and sometimes in practice.
Generally speaking, most citizens get along with the Boros, for example. But the Dimir doesn't get along with them at all. Most citizens appreciate having safe roads and fresh food, too, but the Selesnyans and Golgari also have enemies (including each other, in some cases).
So I guess the answer is yes and no.
CJH
going on a guess here, the Senate and the Rakdos, diametrially opposed enemys right?
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anyway cory, just wanted to say one thing. i liked ravinac but it had too many sterotypes, which i read you like to use alot. infact, it had a lot of headslapping moments. is that the reaction you were going for?
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@IAAB: I found the stereotypes quite refreshing. Compare other MTG characters, Gerrard is the stereotypical unwilling Hero, he even has a goatee. The Standard Cop that has 1 day before retirement, a boss you says "Your off the case!". I was just waiting for Kos to whip out his ass in an interigation. I found it amusing, and it was well written. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, it must like that at least some of the time.
A quick question, and I'd prefer the answer to be something other than a Tool Song.
What exactly is the Schism? What are its properties? Why doesn't it Orvac all of Ravnica of spirits in a typical Izzet way? Orzhov shenanigans?
But....that would be telling
On a serious note, after just finishing Guildpact, with a migraine nontheless, I would like to extend my thanks. Apart from Teysa's complete shift in ethics, I found it an excellent read. Joining The Thran and Chainers Torment as my favorite MTG novels. Great Job really.
Speaking of Teysa, did you feel any....hesitance that she is portrayed as a true Orzhov for most of the novel, fitting her section of the color pie quite well. However, as soon as things got desperate she seemed to drop that hmm, ability to take advantage of the situation financially.
Pivlic jumped at the chance to take bets, on the end of the world as well.
Sure she basically had the whole town "owing" her one, but "owing" on a good faith basis seems very UnOrzhov. I chalked it up to Desperate times/desperate measures.
Speaking of Teysa, did you feel any....hesitance that she is portrayed as a true Orzhov for most of the novel, fitting her section of the color pie quite well. However, as soon as things got desperate she seemed to drop that hmm, ability to take advantage of the situation financially.
Pivlic jumped at the chance to take bets, on the end of the world as well.
Sure she basically had the whole town "owing" her one, but "owing" on a good faith basis seems very UnOrzhov. I chalked it up to Desperate times/desperate measures.
I think what she was doing was that if Huac succeeded, there would be no one left to get money off of. So she did what she could to stop him. (giving away the cure and such)
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I don't think she liked being manipulated by Melisk and the council, either. That's is probably another reason why she decided to defy them.
@Devouring Zombie: At first I thought the Schism was a portal to another plane, and we were going to get that "tie in to the rest of the multiverse that every non-dominaria block must have" sooner than I thought. However, the schism is...you know, I'm really not sure anymore. I think it was a trap of some kind for spirits, so that Hauc could use them for some nefarious scheme...I gotta read the book again, I can't remember it that well.
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In Modern:
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I've been wondering what do you abse your characters off of? like do you base your character off of our collo characters, or do you make like a whole new bio to use?
i liked ravinac but it had too many sterotypes, which i read you like to use alot. infact, it had a lot of headslapping moments. is that the reaction you were going for?
I prefer to think of them as archetypes...archetypes that I then run through the wringer and the twisted corridors of my pop-culture-addled brain. And even if you prefer "stereotype" to describe, for example, the money-grubbing bartender or the cop just short of retirement, I like to think that placing such real-world characters in the unusual setting of Ravnica makes them less...er...type-y?
As for headslapping moments, I'm not sure what you mean.
What I'm going for in every case is a book that I would enjoy reading myself (even if, by the time it goes to press, I have read it so much that I can't bring myself to read it again until the actual book hits shelves). When my own preferences aren't enough, I also try to think of what my younger brother Richard likes to read. He's really my target audience and has a voracious appetite for fantasy novels of all kinds.
Quote from DevouringZombie »
What exactly is the Schism? What are its properties? Why doesn't it Orvac all of Ravnica of spirits in a typical Izzet way? Orzhov shenanigans?
But....that would be telling
Yeah...it would be, to a certain extent.
But the Schism's origin as explained in the book is accurate--it's a bomb, just a bomb that has gone off very, very slowly and created a sort of spiritual black hole over Utvara (and it's stationary, which is why it hasn't sucked up all of Ravnica's ghosts...or has it?). Hauc used it (or rather, the trapped energy) to incubate "his" dragon eggs.
Speaking of Teysa, did you feel any....hesitance that she is portrayed as a true Orzhov for most of the novel, fitting her section of the color pie quite well. However, as soon as things got desperate she seemed to drop that hmm, ability to take advantage of the situation financially.
Pivlic jumped at the chance to take bets, on the end of the world as well.
Sure she basically had the whole town "owing" her one, but "owing" on a good faith basis seems very UnOrzhov. I chalked it up to Desperate times/desperate measures.
I like to think it wasn't so much a change in character as her finally being free to display her *true* character. That said, more or less everything she did at the end of Guildpact was done with what I think are pretty smart objectives: to eliminate a clear enemy that wanted to destroy her personal property (that's what Utvara is, after all), and to both formalize and entrench her control of the area in both word and deed. Teysa was out to earn the loyalty that Uncle had purchased for her. Sure, they all "owe her one" for releasing the cure, but they (meaning those living in Utvara) also can see that she is as willing to fight for her new home as they are.
For anyone familiar with the HBO show Deadwood (especially the second season), I like to think this is analogous to the way Al Swearengen, foul-mouthed murderous pimp that he is, goes out of his way to do what's good for the independence and prosperity of the camp—because it's also good for him in the long run. Al's a big picture kind of guy, and Teysa's looking at the big picture too. Whereas Cy Tolliver, on the other hand, couldn't care less about the good of the camp, so long as he gets paid off by Hearst, in much the same way the rest of the Orzhov leadership (for the most part) only saw Utvara as a tool to accomplish other goals and didn't really care if it was wiped off the map.
(This is just an example; I would never put my own skills in the same category as those of the Deadwood writers. That's the kind of thing that gets you fed to Mr. Wu's pigs.)
Quote from Phyrexian »
I think what she was doing was that if Huac succeeded, there would be no one left to get money off of. So she did what she could to stop him. (giving away the cure and such)
Exactly. But not nearly as long-winded as my explanation.
Quote from EnemyWithin »
@Devouring Zombie: At first I thought the Schism was a portal to another plane, and we were going to get that "tie in to the rest of the multiverse that every non-dominaria block must have" sooner than I thought. However, the schism is...you know, I'm really not sure anymore. I think it was a trap of some kind for spirits, so that Hauc could use them for some nefarious scheme...I gotta read the book again, I can't remember it that well.
In Guildpact (and if this wasn't clear, I only have myself to blame) Hauc used a large part of the trapped "ghost-energy" in the Schism to essentially incubate the dragon eggs.
And you know, personally, I find it best to buy an entirely new copy whenever I re-read a book. It's...um...good for the economy?
Quote from Sliver Underlord »
So long as it doesn't end up being a bunch of the "souls" that were sent to mirroden, I'll be happy.
Now that's an interesting idea. Not saying it's at all correct, but it is interesting.
Quote from gear »
I've been wondering what do you abse your characters off of? like do you base your character off of our collo characters, or do you make like a whole new bio to use?
I'm not sure what you mean by "collo character," but every character I've written has at least a partial bio, usually stored in my head. The first draft of Ravnica included a long detour in which Kos hooked up with an old girlfriend and revealed quite a bit of that bio, but I eventually cut that because it was a drag on the rest of the story. As opposed to a dragon on the rest of the story.
And as other readers and board-posters have noted, I often begin with certain archetypes (or even stereotypes) that I want to transplant into the strange worlds of M:tG and then go from there. A very few characters I've based on other, far more well-known characters (there's a lot of DS9's Quark in Pivlic, for example). But the thing I really like to do is take those "types" and turn them on their heads.
CJH
Edited because I forgot to sign the post. Which isn't necessary, I know...
I meant like Colloseum characters, but thanks for telling, Do you also base characters off people you meet?
Well, Golozar=Scott McGough. Except Golozar is covered with a little bit less fungus and has a cooler temper. (Scott, where did you leave that sarcasm font? I can't seem to find it...)
I guess there are elements of people I know in a lot of the characters, just as there are elements of my own personality in all of them as well as stuff that just pops into my head. I've worked with bartenders that would have only needed a pair of wings to stand in for Pivlic.
Well, Golozar=Scott McGough. Except Golozar is covered with a little bit less fungus and has a cooler temper. (Scott, where did you leave that sarcasm font? I can't seem to find it...)
CJH
I'll have you know that the fungus problem hasn't been nearly as prevalent since I started exfoliating with that sea salt and kelp mixture. Though now, all the cats just follow me around looking for a meal.
And before I go any further, does anyone want to establish for me that being compared to Golozar is an insult, or a compliment? I like to have firm footing before I launch myself teeth-first at someone's throat.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cheers,
McG
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About the Guildpact, the part in the book where the goblins mentioned building flaws into the city of Ravnica, thus the Guildpact weakening over time.. Is this being relegated to a myth then?
And about the time thing... I would think, from the "Rift" mentioned in guildpact, that they do have the ability to slow time, at least. If Urza could pull it off in Time Streams (with a relatively small campus) then it would make sense that they could do it, too. Look at the flavor text for telling time, for example. However, their powers could always be overstated.
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I can only guess before Cory himself answers, but from the descriptions from the novel, the first one could have been the Yore-Tiller /described as a pile of junk/, and the second one could have been Witch-Maw.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Gruul is a combination that relies on impulse and instincts. in other words, they dont mean to cause chaos, but when an entire nation of people act only on first thoughts and impressions, chaos ensues. It is because of this that they seem like simple chaotic clans.
Rakdos, RB, worships chaos as an ideal. They would worship the power of demons and evil, and love the power of destructoin. Their actions are designed to create chaos, for no other purpose.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I'd like to add as well on what I think the nature of the Rakdos would be. Comparing Rakdos to the Dimir might help describing the former. Dimir wants to be in control, to be on top, to have everyone conform to its way of thinking. Its method of attack however is behind the shadows, masked in secrecy, when everyone least expects it. The Rakdos, I think, has the same ambitions as that of Dimir but in comparison is much, much less patient than the Blue/Black guild. Its method of attack is much more dramatic and out into the open. Its enemies would know of its coming attack but then again the Rakdos wouldn't have it any other way.
--Kiku
I see your into comics, reading walking dead and such. are there any others you read, like superhero wise? any favorite story arcs?
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All I know is, they're all currently in the year 7,333 Z.C. attending ChronarchCon XVII. Exchanging trade secrets, checking out the latest in temporal manipulation methods, drinking bumbat, blowing all their zinos (adjusted for temporal inflation) on Chrono-strippers.
Or...it's entirely possible that the chronarchs are one of those things that I did not create, so the limits of their abilities are something I can't establish with any certainty. But I will hazard a guess, knowing the Izzet—they would probably be employed to carry out vendettas and other missions, but the Guildpact would prevent them from really doing anything that would disrupt the relative harmony on Ravnica. The further you travel back in time, the stronger the Guildpact would be. And the GP itself would find a way to keep the Chronarch(s) in question from going back beyond the signing. In theory, at least.
As to whether they're mucking about in the future...not sure. It's the future. The hypotheses on this thread are all quite plausible, though, near as I can tell.
I loved them. Much better than Cats. I'm going to read them again and again.
They're so good you should buy at least ten copies of each Ravnica book to distribute among your friends and family, and encourage them to do the same. It's part of a little program I like to call "CorWay."
I'm still holding out hope—it is Bethesda, after all. They might manage to pull some of that back into the mix. Besides, I pre-ordered. I have to hope.
That's pretty close to how I see it working. The Gruul's current status as just-this-side-of-guildless could well be a sign of the Guildpact's age, and/or its flexibility.
The "chaotic" clans that became those guilds had been pretty soundly knocked about before the signing, and weren't in the best position to negotiate--and their leaders were convinced the Guildpact would be the way to go, since it enshrined their rights to be who and what they were, rather than face the likelihood of being wiped out. And understand, too, that even the chaotic types had been fighting for centuries. Even they might have welcomed a break in the incessant war that was the way of life on pre-GP Ravnica.
Sure the could, and did--they turned their brains toward brainy ways to destroy others. True, they were not often on the front lines, but they would have been equipping those who were.
I have a general idea how each guild (or clan, or caste, or whatever you want to call the pre-GP groups) behaved before the signing. In general, their values and abilities weren't that different than they are now, however.
Utvara (the main setting of Guildpact) is a reclamation zone, it's not supposed to be hustling and bustling--not quite yet. However, it is built upon layers of earlier construction. Reclamations zones are as close as anything comes to wilderness, and even so, you've got Gruul, miners, townsfolk, and others there already.
As for grass, soil, water, etc....You seen Jurassic Park? "Life...finds a way." Ravnicans see grass--tough, scrappy grass--growing wherever it can take purchase. There are trees, and parks of sorts. There are floating gardens (a lot of the terrain we Earthlings take for granted floats in one way or another on Ravnica). The Selesnyans ensure that trees do not go extinct, those trees and wild zeppelids help keep the atmosphere clean enough to breathe.
Real farming is largely an underground (or at least, undercity) way of life. The actual surface of Ravnica is rarely, if ever, seen...and when it is, it is often in the form of something like the Cauldron, as volcanoes burn their way through the urban layers.
There are "seas" and "lakes" that primarily float as well. And the polar caps are two areas where the urban sprawl just barely fits the definition, and mostly takes the form of huge Izzet structures designed to melt and distribute the water trapped there to the rest of the plane.
Those are both good hypotheses...
They make it their business to control as much of the economy as possible. They're smart enough to know that keeping potential customers in poverty is not something that can last, in the long term. It doesn't make sense. Instead of extorting every last zib you've got, they're more likely to demand a portion of your soul (sometimes, literally). To them, loyalty is almost as valuable as money. And loyal Orzhov help them maintain their hold on the economy, even though there are other guilds (Azorius, for one) with an interest in that economy.
And man, I hope that doesn't contradict something I've already said.
Er...it's the one that looks like it's made of junk, dirt, and meat?
Actually, I did not have a particular card in mind with that particular nephilim. The nephilim concept actually came along after I'd created that monster, and it seemed to fit perfectly into that idea, so in this case it became a nephilim retroactively.
That was my editor's idea. She's very smart.
There are plenty of differences, chief among them being that the Gruul practice nature-based spirituality and magic and the Rakdos would just as soon torch everything and eat it, not necessarily in that order. The Gruul believe in the essential chaotic behavior of life, the Rakdos in the chaos of carnage. The Rakdos worship a demon lord, the Gruul worship life and death, in their way. And the Rakdos tend to burrow into the most densely populated areas and keep their centers of power there, while the Gruul are more scattered and factionalized.
You'd be well-advised to speak loudly and carry a big bam-stick when dealing with either one.
I think it's a bad thing to listen to anything even tangentially related to Phil Collins, whatever you're thinking.
I haven't read Matt's article, but I can name a few offhand--Niv-Mizzet, the demon Rakdos, and any other surviving Paruns.
One goblin's myth is another goblin's history...or maybe I'm thinking of monkey myths, like the one about the typewriters and Shakespeare...
Could be. What do they look like?
Wow, that's so much more philosophical than my answer. I like it. The Gruul do mean to cause chaos, as a way of perpetuating life--think of them as an intentionally set forest fire that results in an even stronger ecosphere. Unfortunately for them, the rest of the guilds don't necessarily agree, and these days they don't have as much of a chance to practice their philosophies as they'd like.
I like this one this one too. You guys have to get out of my brain, there's only so much room in there and if you keep knocking about you're going to dislodge some of the Simpsons trivia.
And finally, some news related to some of the earlier topics in the thread... I'm playing in a sealed booster tournament at work over the next few (few dozen?) lunch breaks. 3 Ravnica boosters, 3 Guildpact boosters, and whatever basic lands you want pulled from a big pool.
I'll let you know how I do. I'm guardedly optimistic, my second foil was Agrus Kos.
Freaky!
CJH
I'm sure I'm leaving some things out. It's easier to name my favorite writers. I'm really into Brubaker, Bendis (sometimes), Ellis (always), Ennis (almost always), Alan Moore (when he's not tripping the philosophical fantastic *too* much), Brian K. Vaughan (which reminds me--read Ex Machina!), Slott, and anything written by Robert Kirkman.
But the comic I'm anticipating more than anything I've anticipated, like, ever? Essential Godzilla. I've ordered 3 copies for my box at Seattle's finest comic shop, the Comics Dungeon on 45th. Marvel's Godzilla was teh first comic I ever collected, and now I can finally inflict it on my nephews. If you're at all interested in the giant monsters and/or SHIELD and/or Bronze Age Marvel weirdness, you should pick it up.
CJH
Meh, IT NEEDS TO BE REPLACED BY FAMILY GUY AND FUTURAMA TRIVIA. NOW! (well, older simpson's episodes can stay).
On a side note, i completly forgot about the nature side of the gruul. Huh.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
i actually want to pick up essential godzilla, but lack of funds and way to get to the comic shops (read im still getting used to driving) prevents me from getting near there any time soon.
you said you been reading the new infinity crisis. like i said before, a lack of funds and way to get to the shops have prevented me from reading all of these so ive been reading summaries from websites. from a fan point of view what do you think of the reason why jason todd was brought back and the messed up doom patrol orgins. if you didnt get that yet ill put it in spoiler tags for you
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A truly great petition
I can't afford comics, it would get in the way my magic habit!
Matt Cavotta's article is here - I like the concept of it quite a bit. And hey! It's got pretty pictures of the nephelim too.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mc27
In retrospect, I'd love to have his job. You know, there's a guy who works for George Lucas whose main job is explaining continuity? siiigh.
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All of the guilds tolerate each other in a way. I guess I'm not quite sure what you mean. There are guilds that definitely get along better than others--the Selesnya, Azorius, Orzhov and Boros all tend to share similar goals--an orderly society protected by the Guildpact--but their methods are very different.
Neither of those nephilim were the junk-monster in Guildpact, now that I look at them.
And you forgot that someone can hold many different varieties of trivia in one's head simultaneously.
If there were any justice in this universe Futurama would have taken over the Simpsons' time slot and Homer, Marge, and the rest would have been allowed to gracefully retire. Instead, Fox seems determined to milk every last dollar they can from the show. There are still shining moments of brilliance on the Simpsons, but nothing that can compare with the Monorail episode, "Bring back Sheriff Lobo," Sideshow's Bob's one-man HMS Pinafore or Hank Scorpio.
Man, I wish I could have resisted clicking on that.
If you can scrape up the funds, I still recommend getting Essential Godzilla. I hear it's a one-time deal with Toho (who own the rights, and yanked them from Marvel way back in the day) and there will only be one printing.
There is no such thing as too much comic geekdom, unless you're on a date. And if you're on a date with a comic geek, even that doesn't apply. No way I'm going to try to talk you out of a Magic habit, though.
Personally, I'd rather create the continuity than manage it any day. Managing continuity is really not easy. It sounds fun, but I imagine it's a very difficult job just from my own efforts to maintain continuity over three books. Matt's a braver man than me.
CJH
No guilds are without enemies. They all get along by law, but there's always at least one guild that diametrically opposes each other guild in philosophy and sometimes in practice.
Generally speaking, most citizens get along with the Boros, for example. But the Dimir doesn't get along with them at all. Most citizens appreciate having safe roads and fresh food, too, but the Selesnyans and Golgari also have enemies (including each other, in some cases).
So I guess the answer is yes and no.
CJH
going on a guess here, the Senate and the Rakdos, diametrially opposed enemys right?
Avvy from Le Gambit
Extendo-Sliver
Master of Death and Taxes
You really can't get away.
I've tried.
That would be telling.
CJH
more like common sense.
anyway cory, just wanted to say one thing. i liked ravinac but it had too many sterotypes, which i read you like to use alot. infact, it had a lot of headslapping moments. is that the reaction you were going for?
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A truly great petition
A quick question, and I'd prefer the answer to be something other than a Tool Song.
What exactly is the Schism? What are its properties? Why doesn't it Orvac all of Ravnica of spirits in a typical Izzet way? Orzhov shenanigans?
But....that would be telling
On a serious note, after just finishing Guildpact, with a migraine nontheless, I would like to extend my thanks. Apart from Teysa's complete shift in ethics, I found it an excellent read. Joining The Thran and Chainers Torment as my favorite MTG novels. Great Job really.
Speaking of Teysa, did you feel any....hesitance that she is portrayed as a true Orzhov for most of the novel, fitting her section of the color pie quite well. However, as soon as things got desperate she seemed to drop that hmm, ability to take advantage of the situation financially.
Pivlic jumped at the chance to take bets, on the end of the world as well.
Sure she basically had the whole town "owing" her one, but "owing" on a good faith basis seems very UnOrzhov. I chalked it up to Desperate times/desperate measures.
I think what she was doing was that if Huac succeeded, there would be no one left to get money off of. So she did what she could to stop him. (giving away the cure and such)
@Devouring Zombie: At first I thought the Schism was a portal to another plane, and we were going to get that "tie in to the rest of the multiverse that every non-dominaria block must have" sooner than I thought. However, the schism is...you know, I'm really not sure anymore. I think it was a trap of some kind for spirits, so that Hauc could use them for some nefarious scheme...I gotta read the book again, I can't remember it that well.
In Modern:
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Avvy from Le Gambit
Extendo-Sliver
Master of Death and Taxes
You really can't get away.
I've tried.
Just stopped by to say that both books were awesome, I hope Dissension is just as good.
I prefer to think of them as archetypes...archetypes that I then run through the wringer and the twisted corridors of my pop-culture-addled brain. And even if you prefer "stereotype" to describe, for example, the money-grubbing bartender or the cop just short of retirement, I like to think that placing such real-world characters in the unusual setting of Ravnica makes them less...er...type-y?
As for headslapping moments, I'm not sure what you mean.
What I'm going for in every case is a book that I would enjoy reading myself (even if, by the time it goes to press, I have read it so much that I can't bring myself to read it again until the actual book hits shelves). When my own preferences aren't enough, I also try to think of what my younger brother Richard likes to read. He's really my target audience and has a voracious appetite for fantasy novels of all kinds.
Yeah...it would be, to a certain extent.
But the Schism's origin as explained in the book is accurate--it's a bomb, just a bomb that has gone off very, very slowly and created a sort of spiritual black hole over Utvara (and it's stationary, which is why it hasn't sucked up all of Ravnica's ghosts...or has it?). Hauc used it (or rather, the trapped energy) to incubate "his" dragon eggs.
I like to think it wasn't so much a change in character as her finally being free to display her *true* character. That said, more or less everything she did at the end of Guildpact was done with what I think are pretty smart objectives: to eliminate a clear enemy that wanted to destroy her personal property (that's what Utvara is, after all), and to both formalize and entrench her control of the area in both word and deed. Teysa was out to earn the loyalty that Uncle had purchased for her. Sure, they all "owe her one" for releasing the cure, but they (meaning those living in Utvara) also can see that she is as willing to fight for her new home as they are.
For anyone familiar with the HBO show Deadwood (especially the second season), I like to think this is analogous to the way Al Swearengen, foul-mouthed murderous pimp that he is, goes out of his way to do what's good for the independence and prosperity of the camp—because it's also good for him in the long run. Al's a big picture kind of guy, and Teysa's looking at the big picture too. Whereas Cy Tolliver, on the other hand, couldn't care less about the good of the camp, so long as he gets paid off by Hearst, in much the same way the rest of the Orzhov leadership (for the most part) only saw Utvara as a tool to accomplish other goals and didn't really care if it was wiped off the map.
(This is just an example; I would never put my own skills in the same category as those of the Deadwood writers. That's the kind of thing that gets you fed to Mr. Wu's pigs.)
Exactly. But not nearly as long-winded as my explanation.
In Guildpact (and if this wasn't clear, I only have myself to blame) Hauc used a large part of the trapped "ghost-energy" in the Schism to essentially incubate the dragon eggs.
And you know, personally, I find it best to buy an entirely new copy whenever I re-read a book. It's...um...good for the economy?
Now that's an interesting idea. Not saying it's at all correct, but it is interesting.
I'm not sure what you mean by "collo character," but every character I've written has at least a partial bio, usually stored in my head. The first draft of Ravnica included a long detour in which Kos hooked up with an old girlfriend and revealed quite a bit of that bio, but I eventually cut that because it was a drag on the rest of the story. As opposed to a dragon on the rest of the story.
And as other readers and board-posters have noted, I often begin with certain archetypes (or even stereotypes) that I want to transplant into the strange worlds of M:tG and then go from there. A very few characters I've based on other, far more well-known characters (there's a lot of DS9's Quark in Pivlic, for example). But the thing I really like to do is take those "types" and turn them on their heads.
CJH
Edited because I forgot to sign the post. Which isn't necessary, I know...
Well, Golozar=Scott McGough. Except Golozar is covered with a little bit less fungus and has a cooler temper. (Scott, where did you leave that sarcasm font? I can't seem to find it...)
I guess there are elements of people I know in a lot of the characters, just as there are elements of my own personality in all of them as well as stuff that just pops into my head. I've worked with bartenders that would have only needed a pair of wings to stand in for Pivlic.
CJH
I'll have you know that the fungus problem hasn't been nearly as prevalent since I started exfoliating with that sea salt and kelp mixture. Though now, all the cats just follow me around looking for a meal.
And before I go any further, does anyone want to establish for me that being compared to Golozar is an insult, or a compliment? I like to have firm footing before I launch myself teeth-first at someone's throat.
McG
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