If there is one among you who hasn't read the SCOURGE novel, I suppose it's too late to warn about a spoiler. But of course, I'm almost positive that even if you haven't read it, someone who has read it has told you.
We learned in the novel SCOURGE that Yawgmoth is still alive - a shadow of who he once was. He is on Phyrexia, rebuilding his world so that he may launch another assault on the Multiverse. I imagine that next time, he will be twice as dangerous, less reckless, and wiser from mistakes he made in his own arrogance. I beleive that the return to Dominaria will turn out to be the return of Phyrexia, too.
On the Wizards Website, it was stated that Time Spiral would take paths that seemed unthinkable untill now, and sure enough, Teferi and Mishra will be making appearences.
Wait... Mishra?
If Mishra is back, as readers of the novels will know, Yawgmoth can't be far behined. Who knows, if Teferi (Who is a plainswalker) can be carded, why can't Yawgmoth?
We know that Yawgmoth will be back someday. Now is just as good a time as any.
First-- Yawgmoth isn't a planeswalker, so there's no "rule" saying he can't be printed. Being the pen-ultimate villain to this point in Dominarian history and MTG storyline, it would most likely be seen as taboo to print him though.
Two- While WOTC would have you believe Teferi's card is a version of him taken from the past, Time Spiral spoilers prove otherwise.
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The Legendary Storyline Poster--- Ixidorsdreams (yeah, it was me ;))
I could kill J. Robert King for bringing him back to life. Him still being alive basically negates the entire story of Invasion. All those people who died? They died in vain. One of the most powerful planeswalkers sacrificing himself to finally put an end to Yawgy? Nope, did nothing. It's horrible fiction to bring back to life the villain who was finally killed. Look at Spiderman (or comics in general). One of the major complaints was about characters coming back to life who had been killed.
But, Urza already has been a card, remember Blind Seer? Could they make them fantastically powerful and exponentially overcosted? Yes, but why... for collectors?
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@Sulith: Who knows? Even without flavor text, just about everyone I've heard from thinks Jaya Ballard was done right.
I think that Gerrard's sacrifice wasn't for nothing - Yawgmoth was left without an army and his godlike power, a mere shadow of what he once was. I wouldn't be surprised if Future Sight or Planar Chaos brought him back as some kind of Spirit, Demon, or Avatar, either as a Jokulmorder-esque black legend, or as a Marit Lage-esque token produced by a card similar to Dark Depths or Tomb of Urami.
From what has been spoiled of Time Spiral's story,
it seems as though Wizards may have finally killed or de-powered every planeswalker by the end of the series. Though only Teferi has been confirmed as releasing his spark this block, Slobad gave his up in Fifth Dawn, and the time rifts are making planeswalking painful and more difficult. A second invasion or the reappearance of Yawgmoth would be the perfect time for them to finally end the old story and begin planeshopping in earnest, without having to make weak connections to Dominaria at the end of each trilogy.
Any thoughts?
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I don't like the idea of Yawgmoth being printed as a card, but I do like the storyline idea of bringing him back later for new (or old) heroes to stop.. or for Yawgmoth to crush. Even better would be if planeswalkers gathered to stop him.. I want to see what the Myojin of Night's Reach would do against Yawgmoth.
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Getting the last word does not mean that you win the argument.
@Zyrakris: I'd like to see that battle too, but I fear for the Myojin being completely crushed. And who knows what that might do to the plane of Kamigawa? Maybe it would become a plane of eternal day...
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I expect Yawgmoths' return whole heartedly, i just don't expect the card to ever see print.
And if anything, i'm thinking Mishra might take the helm where Urza left off, if they decide to introduce him in Planar Chaos. A heroic Mishra? I'm so down. It would blow his mind to be told however that he tried to totally annihilate and murder his brother...after making it with his wife and having a baby xD.
Yes, it's Mishra's son. Believe it.
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The Legendary Storyline Poster--- Ixidorsdreams (yeah, it was me ;))
They said that it was a Younger Jaya, before her accension.
Freyliese ( i know I must have misspelled that) isn't going to give up her spark, and Karn is still walking around with something that resembles a spark, Lord Windgrace is around also, so there will be plenty of Planeswalkers at the end of this block.
I never like teferi as a planeswalker anyways.
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You really can't get away.
I've tried.
Yawg will never see print. Look at Jaya, she has cards a few good cards with flavor text, and she ends up pretty spicy. Now imagine Yawg with a built in Will or Bargain, I mean thats just silly.
Or they could pull a Gerrad and make him terrible in every way possible.
Yawg just has way to much power to be made into a card. He really is the personification of black, and while I think it would be a waste to just end him.....I think its time we move on.
What annoy's me about these Time Rifts is what exactly going on with Jaya. If she comes through this rift pre-planeswalker, what happens when the present Jaya shows up? Back to the Future senerio where the universe goes Kablamo?
On your Jaya poitn, since planeswalking is so difficult we can assume that Jaya-walker isnt on Dominaria and can't get there like most planeswalkers.
How long have i been mentioning this now?
Yawgmoth would never see print.
Silver- How can you see that? Scourge is as canon as any book. Perhaps if it wasn't King as the author, perhaps if Mr. McDermott didn't continue the thought with the Phyrexian oil in Moons of Mirrodin, but a combination of both as well as Teferi's white portal appearance tells me these portals could cross the boundaries of space/time, so the black portal was certainly Yawgmoth.
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The Legendary Storyline Poster--- Ixidorsdreams (yeah, it was me ;))
Yawgmoth will NOT be a card. His mere whim is banned in all tournaments. His purchases result in mass death. It would be the equivalent of printing Chuck Norris, Karate Cowboy with TAP: Roundhouse your opponent. They can't be regenerated
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"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." -Groucho Marx
"You're going to fight that?!"
"No...I'm going to kill that."
A GAME OF THRONES ON HBO!!!! AAAAAH~!!!!
I could kill J. Robert King for bringing him back to life. Him still being alive basically negates the entire story of Invasion. All those people who died? They died in vain. One of the most powerful planeswalkers sacrificing himself to finally put an end to Yawgy? Nope, did nothing. It's horrible fiction to bring back to life the villain who was finally killed. Look at Spiderman (or comics in general). One of the major complaints was about characters coming back to life who had been killed.
No time is a good time for Yawgmoth to come back.
Perhaps Yawgmoth never really was dead, and Wizards never intended him to be dead. All the people who died to stop him did save Dominaria for a time. That would make it tragic, wouldn't it, if Yawgmoth came back anyway. But the people who died bought Dominaria some time. Perhaps Yawgmoth will be killed while he's weak? Perhaps an appearance in Time Spiral would be his last mad grab for power. But what if Yawgmoth dose become a plansewalker? That would make for a thrilling storyline. Of course, how do you kill him then? I won't pretend to know what is going to happen.
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I see no reason they couldn't pull Yawgmoth from way back in the Thran era, before he became obsessed with 'compleation', print him as a white/green creature (his appearance being related to the summoning attempts) in the second book, then have him ascend as a planeswalker and fight an epic battle against himself that completely tears apart dominaria and splinters it into million of semi-real planes like Serra's.
Dislike Scourge all you like Silver, but it's canon, and no amount of your argument can change it. In a weakened state, Yawgmoth lives on in Phyrexia, period, end quote/discussion. These portals werent illusions like Mishra in Phyrexia, they were real as can be. Being the most evil black associated character to ever come from Dominaria, he was summoned, although couldn't come to the portal like everyone else (couldn't leave Phyrexia).
I won't argue a fact.
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Perhaps Yawgmoth never really was dead, and Wizards never intended him to be dead. All the people who died to stop him did save Dominaria for a time. That would make it tragic, wouldn't it, if Yawgmoth came back anyway. But the people who died bought Dominaria some time. Perhaps Yawgmoth will be killed while he's weak? Perhaps an appearance in Time Spiral would be his last mad grab for power. But what if Yawgmoth dose become a plansewalker? That would make for a thrilling storyline. Of course, how do you kill him then? I won't pretend to know what is going to happen.
Turning a story where the characters die to kill the main baddie into one where they die to give Dominaria some time (centuries worth of time?) is bad, bad, bad.
I'm trying to remember where I saw it. It was either an Ask Wizards thing or somewhere here on the forums that mentioned what Karona saw may not be fact and reality (or at least the main reality). If I can find it, and if it's straight from Wizards, it puts into question whether Yawgmoth is still alive.
Agreed, the website has said many odd things in the past, so why go with it now? If he said so on the boards, that's one thing, and even so he didn't deny, so i'd stick with the book.
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Agreed, the website has said many odd things in the past, so why go with it now? If he said so on the boards, that's one thing, and even so he didn't deny, so i'd stick with the book.
Which website? The Wizards one?
Either way, this Brady is in charge of the story related details, no?
After the Karona bit, he says:
A tidbit: The very existence of Karona damaged and warped Dominaria's planar stability. And it's not the first such threat. Others include the disaster at Tolaria, the overlay of Rath, and several notable other events. Something's wrong with Dominaria now -- something big, something that affects multiple planes.
And here we are at Time Spiral, a little over a year after that bit was mentioned. I'd put more credibility into what he says about Yawgie because of that, and as such, I would not believe that he is either dead or alive.
To be honest, what Wizards says strikes me as being canon more than what the books say. *shrugs*
Never once did the author of the book Scourge say it wasn't the real Ineffable, and JRK wouldn't fake bringing the Ineffable back. Brady may said the possibility was open that it wasn't the real one, but the book is what we have to go on, so i go with current canon, no "hypothetical possibilities". It's not about me being right, it's about millions of possibilities not being taken as canon over actual novels.
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In Scourge, Yawgmoth begged Karona to come to him so he could regain some of his loss power. I remember because she closed the portal out of fear. I also believe, although I don't remember specifically, that there was an immense hole blown in the side of Phyrexia.
Other than the Nine Titans who blew open that hole in Phyrexia, I don't believe Phyrexia had ever been that seriously damaged before.
Therefore, the Phyrexia that Karona saw had to be the current one.
As we all know, Yawgmoth is not a physical entity. Every phyrexian has a bit of him in it, so to speak. It's entirely possible that so much of Yawgmoth was blown up that he was severely weakened, but that enough of him remained in Phyrexia to retain his existence.
As for Serra;
Going off of what is exactly said in the book, Karona visited Serra's realm. It's possible that she went back in time, but the book makes no mention of this.
I don't know what to think about Serra, but I think Karona saw the real, current Phyrexia
Never once did the author of the book Scourge say it wasn't the real Ineffable, and JRK wouldn't fake bringing the Ineffable back. Brady may said the possibility was open that it wasn't the real one, but the book is what we have to go on, so i go with current canon, no "hypothetical possibilities". It's not about me being right, it's about millions of possibilities not being taken as canon over actual novels.
Hypothetical possibilities? Brady is in charge of the story and flavor aspects of Magic, right? If so, I think the only real thing we know for sure is that we don't know for sure.
Novels be damned, if Wizards decides to change it, then what happened in the book doesn't matter. If Brady is speaking for Wizards and giving both possibilities, it negates what happened in the book and leaves us with two possibilities: he's dead or he's alive.
Karona did seem to warp a lot of stuff, from what I remember of the book. Until we see him back again after what Brady has said, we don't know.
Also, it's not millions of possibilities. It's two given by someone tied to Wizards. This isn't exactly unplausible theories being shot through the room and grabbed on to. This was a tidbit of information coming from the same post that gave accurate information on Time Spiral, which helps it's credibility, in my opinion.
Mistwalker and Squirle are right. I don't know why Brady said this, maybe because they didn't like this as well, or maybe it was Continuity team's reaction for people complaining about return of Yawgmoth and Serra.
Presumably it's because bringing back dead characters arbitrarily is cheesy as heck and it renders Apocalypse's ending largely meaningless. If Apocalypse had ended with a largely intact Dominaria it would be one thing, but from what we can see in Time Spiral the plane is barely better off than if Yawgmoth had won; if the heroes both don't really save the plane and don't kill the villain it's all a rather pointless and stupid exercise. Not to mention that no other story with Yawgmoth can possibly be as epic and built up over as much time as the Weatherlight Saga, so bringing him back can only be anticlimactic.
My guess would be that Brady and the creative team know all that, and aren't interested in bringing Yawgmoth back to life, so they're distancing themselves from anything that would imply they might. The sequence in Scourge is vague enough (and all of it is inconsistent enough with the "reality" of the storyline) that it's easy to say, yeah, that wasn't 100% factually accurate.
EDIT: John_D's quote pretty much backs up my point. What Brady says, for good or ill, is more "correct" than what was printed in a novel years ago; and since he (smartly, in my opinion) wants to let deaths "stick," I think Yawgmoth is quite thankfully dead, dead, dead.
To all those that think that yawgmoth should be left dead, here is my take on it and my opinion.
Its really easy to make a convincing hero, to make a hero that people can sympathise (sp? I'v gone dumb : /) with. And basically, yeah if Yawgmoth is still alive all the invasion chars and other that died fighting him died in vain, but they are replaceable (I know Urza meant alot to some people, and others hated his character, but I still think he falls under this category, even being one of the biggest magic characters). A good villain, a villain people love to hate is hard to come by, and Yawgmoth was one of those villains, and the fact that he is one tough mother tapper to kill adds alot to his character and truly emphasizes the point when he does finally end up dead, whether its this block, next block or 10 blocks from now.
And I agree completely with shadowlord who gave a good explaination for the invasion deaths not being in vain.
Another option is that he is dead, but is still able to somehow communicate with the living. We know because of Ravnica that spirits can have a great deal of influence on the living world. Who's to say Yawgmoth's powerless spirit is floating around, trying to find a way to return to life and force all Dominarians to eat twinkies?
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We learned in the novel SCOURGE that Yawgmoth is still alive - a shadow of who he once was. He is on Phyrexia, rebuilding his world so that he may launch another assault on the Multiverse. I imagine that next time, he will be twice as dangerous, less reckless, and wiser from mistakes he made in his own arrogance. I beleive that the return to Dominaria will turn out to be the return of Phyrexia, too.
On the Wizards Website, it was stated that Time Spiral would take paths that seemed unthinkable untill now, and sure enough, Teferi and Mishra will be making appearences.
Wait... Mishra?
If Mishra is back, as readers of the novels will know, Yawgmoth can't be far behined. Who knows, if Teferi (Who is a plainswalker) can be carded, why can't Yawgmoth?
We know that Yawgmoth will be back someday. Now is just as good a time as any.
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
Two- While WOTC would have you believe Teferi's card is a version of him taken from the past, Time Spiral spoilers prove otherwise.
No time is a good time for Yawgmoth to come back.
I think that Gerrard's sacrifice wasn't for nothing - Yawgmoth was left without an army and his godlike power, a mere shadow of what he once was. I wouldn't be surprised if Future Sight or Planar Chaos brought him back as some kind of Spirit, Demon, or Avatar, either as a Jokulmorder-esque black legend, or as a Marit Lage-esque token produced by a card similar to Dark Depths or Tomb of Urami.
From what has been spoiled of Time Spiral's story,
Any thoughts?
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Thanks to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner.
And if anything, i'm thinking Mishra might take the helm where Urza left off, if they decide to introduce him in Planar Chaos. A heroic Mishra? I'm so down. It would blow his mind to be told however that he tried to totally annihilate and murder his brother...after making it with his wife and having a baby xD.
Yes, it's Mishra's son. Believe it.
Freyliese ( i know I must have misspelled that) isn't going to give up her spark, and Karn is still walking around with something that resembles a spark, Lord Windgrace is around also, so there will be plenty of Planeswalkers at the end of this block.
I never like teferi as a planeswalker anyways.
Avvy from Le Gambit
Extendo-Sliver
Master of Death and Taxes
You really can't get away.
I've tried.
Or they could pull a Gerrad and make him terrible in every way possible.
Yawg just has way to much power to be made into a card. He really is the personification of black, and while I think it would be a waste to just end him.....I think its time we move on.
What annoy's me about these Time Rifts is what exactly going on with Jaya. If she comes through this rift pre-planeswalker, what happens when the present Jaya shows up? Back to the Future senerio where the universe goes Kablamo?
How long have i been mentioning this now?
Yawgmoth would never see print.
Silver- How can you see that? Scourge is as canon as any book. Perhaps if it wasn't King as the author, perhaps if Mr. McDermott didn't continue the thought with the Phyrexian oil in Moons of Mirrodin, but a combination of both as well as Teferi's white portal appearance tells me these portals could cross the boundaries of space/time, so the black portal was certainly Yawgmoth.
"You're going to fight that?!"
"No...I'm going to kill that."
A GAME OF THRONES ON HBO!!!! AAAAAH~!!!!
Perhaps Yawgmoth never really was dead, and Wizards never intended him to be dead. All the people who died to stop him did save Dominaria for a time. That would make it tragic, wouldn't it, if Yawgmoth came back anyway. But the people who died bought Dominaria some time. Perhaps Yawgmoth will be killed while he's weak? Perhaps an appearance in Time Spiral would be his last mad grab for power. But what if Yawgmoth dose become a plansewalker? That would make for a thrilling storyline. Of course, how do you kill him then? I won't pretend to know what is going to happen.
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
Yawgmoth
Basic Land-Swamp
tap: add one black mana to your mana pool.
duh.
Also, wasnt Harbin Urza's son? Well there was that one part when Kayla had that affair with Mishra...
I won't argue a fact.
Turning a story where the characters die to kill the main baddie into one where they die to give Dominaria some time (centuries worth of time?) is bad, bad, bad.
I'm trying to remember where I saw it. It was either an Ask Wizards thing or somewhere here on the forums that mentioned what Karona saw may not be fact and reality (or at least the main reality). If I can find it, and if it's straight from Wizards, it puts into question whether Yawgmoth is still alive.
Which website? The Wizards one?
Either way, this Brady is in charge of the story related details, no?
After the Karona bit, he says:
And here we are at Time Spiral, a little over a year after that bit was mentioned. I'd put more credibility into what he says about Yawgie because of that, and as such, I would not believe that he is either dead or alive.
To be honest, what Wizards says strikes me as being canon more than what the books say. *shrugs*
In Scourge, Yawgmoth begged Karona to come to him so he could regain some of his loss power. I remember because she closed the portal out of fear. I also believe, although I don't remember specifically, that there was an immense hole blown in the side of Phyrexia.
Other than the Nine Titans who blew open that hole in Phyrexia, I don't believe Phyrexia had ever been that seriously damaged before.
Therefore, the Phyrexia that Karona saw had to be the current one.
As we all know, Yawgmoth is not a physical entity. Every phyrexian has a bit of him in it, so to speak. It's entirely possible that so much of Yawgmoth was blown up that he was severely weakened, but that enough of him remained in Phyrexia to retain his existence.
As for Serra;
Going off of what is exactly said in the book, Karona visited Serra's realm. It's possible that she went back in time, but the book makes no mention of this.
I don't know what to think about Serra, but I think Karona saw the real, current Phyrexia
Hypothetical possibilities? Brady is in charge of the story and flavor aspects of Magic, right? If so, I think the only real thing we know for sure is that we don't know for sure.
Novels be damned, if Wizards decides to change it, then what happened in the book doesn't matter. If Brady is speaking for Wizards and giving both possibilities, it negates what happened in the book and leaves us with two possibilities: he's dead or he's alive.
Karona did seem to warp a lot of stuff, from what I remember of the book. Until we see him back again after what Brady has said, we don't know.
Also, it's not millions of possibilities. It's two given by someone tied to Wizards. This isn't exactly unplausible theories being shot through the room and grabbed on to. This was a tidbit of information coming from the same post that gave accurate information on Time Spiral, which helps it's credibility, in my opinion.
Presumably it's because bringing back dead characters arbitrarily is cheesy as heck and it renders Apocalypse's ending largely meaningless. If Apocalypse had ended with a largely intact Dominaria it would be one thing, but from what we can see in Time Spiral the plane is barely better off than if Yawgmoth had won; if the heroes both don't really save the plane and don't kill the villain it's all a rather pointless and stupid exercise. Not to mention that no other story with Yawgmoth can possibly be as epic and built up over as much time as the Weatherlight Saga, so bringing him back can only be anticlimactic.
My guess would be that Brady and the creative team know all that, and aren't interested in bringing Yawgmoth back to life, so they're distancing themselves from anything that would imply they might. The sequence in Scourge is vague enough (and all of it is inconsistent enough with the "reality" of the storyline) that it's easy to say, yeah, that wasn't 100% factually accurate.
EDIT: John_D's quote pretty much backs up my point. What Brady says, for good or ill, is more "correct" than what was printed in a novel years ago; and since he (smartly, in my opinion) wants to let deaths "stick," I think Yawgmoth is quite thankfully dead, dead, dead.
Its really easy to make a convincing hero, to make a hero that people can sympathise (sp? I'v gone dumb : /) with. And basically, yeah if Yawgmoth is still alive all the invasion chars and other that died fighting him died in vain, but they are replaceable (I know Urza meant alot to some people, and others hated his character, but I still think he falls under this category, even being one of the biggest magic characters). A good villain, a villain people love to hate is hard to come by, and Yawgmoth was one of those villains, and the fact that he is one tough mother tapper to kill adds alot to his character and truly emphasizes the point when he does finally end up dead, whether its this block, next block or 10 blocks from now.
And I agree completely with shadowlord who gave a good explaination for the invasion deaths not being in vain.
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