I haven't really been dissapointed by Time Spiral. Reading through the flavour text on certain cards gave me an idea as to how the book might end, and unfortunatly, it ended without really explaining anything. In fact, I think we've been left with more questions then answers, more questions then we started with.
Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing. And due to the "time spiralling" nature of this set, I think the book actually fits it pretty well. Sure it's not gonna become a literary masterpiece, regarded by all as one of the greatest books ever, but at the same time I think it will fit well with the other two novels when they're released. This book seems to be a giant question mark. Was it good? Was it bad? I don't think we'll be able to finally judge until after Future sight is out... once we see just how well all the loose ends are tied up.
I started reading Time Spiral expecting Teferi to lose his spark, to learn of a distorted and dying dominaria, and be introduced to a few new key characters, and be re-introduced to a few others, namely Jhoira, Nicol Bolas and Freyalise. That's all the info I had when I first started reading. I wasn't dissapointed, because I got all that and more. Not much more, like one might hope, but at least not less. It could have been better, yes, but it could have been oh so much worse.
I don't know about anyone else, but this book has gotten me excited over the following questions:
Nicol Bolas - Madara - Kamigawa connection in the next sets?
The Urborg Dragon... where's it from?
Is Teferi really no longer a planeswalker?
What's the deal with Radha, Venser and the Rifts?
Speakin of the rifts, what's the deal with Venser's machine?
If Shiv has returned properly, how long before Zhalfir arrives?
How are the new arrival Shivans dealing with the current Shivans?
DID Shiv really return properly?
What role will Windgrace and Freyalise play in the next books (and sets)?
All questions that I think probably have to be answered. I can't wait!
Well, we disagree here. In my opinion Star Wars doesn't stand alone, nor do any of the Alternative Histories by Turtledove, or even the Harry Potter books beyond the 3rd.
As far as good series that dont? Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Syphony of Ages, The Spellsong Cycle, Tears of Artamon, A Song of Fire and Ice, The Chronicles of Magravandias, to name the ones that are sitting in my dorm room.
Reguardless of whether or not LoTR was supposed to be one long book or not, the fact remains that it is indeed a trilogy, just as much as the original Star Wars movies are. They only reason they're not one movie is because no one could sit through a 9 hour movie.
Yes, they stand alone a bit, but you need a lot of background information to know what the heck is going on. You can certaintly jump into the middle of them, but you can do the same to anything. It just doesn't make much sense.
Edit: Also, as I've said in this thread a few times now, as far as I can see it, none of the magic 'trilogies' are supposed to stand alone. I look at them as one book, just as LoTR is.
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it was an ok book at best, way too much combat for my taste, not enough story, it was a little lame to be able to skip over entire chapters of combat and not miss anything plot wise (or to even have entire chapters of combat)
anyway, i only have one question
when they're seeing the different planeswalkers that protect the different lands throughout time, and they come to argoth, it was page 193
"His motion slowed and Teferi found himself high over a different forest one with massive, healthy trees. A beautiful blonde woman dressed all in green stood balanced on the tip of a tall pine. She was weeping."
who was the blonde woman?
freyalise hadn't even been born during the time of the brothers war, and titania wasn't a planeswalker, so who was the woman?
is it supposed to be gaea, finally given an actual form? did they ignore everything they've written about freyalise and its really her, or maybe titania? is it someone else entirely?
It is clearly stated that when Radha stabbed him his CenCon was in his brain and that's why he reacted like that. Here's the quote:
Teferi also admitted that he was absent-minded, thinking ahead, and that allowed the uber-quick Radha to surprise him, not unlike what Yawgmoth did to Dyfed, a stab in the brain.
Note: I like the expression that Scott used (the one I have in bold). Have you been reading our CenCon theory, Scott? (I'm joking of course, but I do think that it is some kind of nod to us)
Thanks for the thoughtful and sharp-eyed post, by the way:D .
As to your question, short answer: no
Longer answer: I based that scene of Radha (temporarily) besting Teferi on the planeswalker model established by Rob King in Time Streams and more directly in The Thran. I believe this is also one of the foundations of the CenCon theory, so it's perfectly natural that they'd agree. I wasn't fully aware of the CenCon theory when I wrote this bit and I wasn't explicitly referring to the theory, but I did write it that way to confirm this particular detail about planeswalkers and the way they are.
So yeah, it's a nod to anyone who ever thought about this enough to wonder how a planeswalker's transcendent mind and body work. I knew that would include proponents of the CC Theory, but beyond that it wasn't intended as a direct shout out to the theory itself.
But hey, at least we settled one aspect of it....
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"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
@Scott:
Any clues on Teferi and Jhoira knowing too much about history which hapenned during their phased out state? Or maybe they hadn't been really phased out as we thought? I remember strange fragment where Teferi says to Jhoira that they weren't on Dominaria for 300 years! She is shocked, and Teferi tells her that time passed different in her workshop.
I'm not sure what to think about this.
Maybe they weren't phased out as Shiv and Zhalfir, but were in that workshop [some time bubble]? And maybe it was still intact during the whole Invasion [that would explain their knowledge about Bo Levar, Karn and other things], but it phased out after Invasion [so they didn't knew about Karona, nor about how long they were phased out].
That's all confusing stuff
Killing me not to, but can't say. If you still don't know at the end of the trilogy, I'll be happy to answer.
Though I can say it was my intent to show that neither Teferi nor Jhoira was completely phased out since the Invasion like Shiv and Zhalfir...my personal opinion is that there was no way Teferi could just walk away without peeking to see what happened.
But let me use what is definitely in print so I can elaborate: The existence of Jhoira's workshop in the first chapter of Time Spiral proves she and Teferi have been unphased and active for some time. The book also hints that in addition to the disruptive effect of the rifts themselves, Karona's world-altering presence helped throw Teferi off so he's about 100+ years off from where he thought he'd be.
I think that helps account for some of the gaps in his information--as he started preparing to return for Shiv, he didn't realize he was looking at the situation from a slightly skewed perspective. It's a bit like he studied for the wrong test and has to make do with the answers he does know.
Hope that helps and doesn't reek of cop-out.
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"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
Bolas says he was dead in Time Spiral, but i took is as him basically stroking his own ego with the assertion he could even live through death. At Champion's Trial, he nor Tetsuo are convinced the act of seperating from the physical realm of Dominaria would destroy him completely.
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The Legendary Storyline Poster--- Ixidorsdreams (yeah, it was me ;))
I'm glad MORT, but you didn't read Legends II either, so you don't know how to correctly put the quote into context as far as what already happened to it. If you didn't witness the event, it's hard to be so sure of what happened, isn't it?
Again i contend Bolas' exaggeration of what occurred. He made himself seem unkillable in the face of new faces, likely an intimidation tactic or again a stroke of his own ego.
Ok MORT, but when I go re-purchase Legends II so i can quote them in Champions Trial, you can send me the money for it and i'l send it to you highlighted, how's that sound?
I think i'll make that deal. If not i'll send you Legends II free.
Bolas in fact says that the act won't kill him, and he'd return to avenge the act. I promise you he didn't die, on the mediation/mediatation plane, your mind is present, which is all a planeswalker needs to survive. However, without mana to draw upon (a Bogardan Hammer thrown at his manabase, utterly destroying it), he couldn't act. That didn't mean his mind couldn't self-preserve and he knew this.
The fact of the matter is the spark itself is enough to keep Bolas' mind alive and well. As soon as a source came through (Radha), he was able to return to material world, and thus was back on Dominaria in reality. Wasn't destroyed, was exaggerating.
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The Legendary Storyline Poster--- Ixidorsdreams (yeah, it was me ;))
Honestly, the whole Nicol Bolas thingie is worrying me a little.
1) He somewhat appears to be a "Yawgy wannabe" for future plotline - very old, very strong, not exactly good and with a manner for converting people to his point of view "the hard way".
However, it took Urza millenia to nurture Gerrard plus whole Weatherlight/Legacy thing to do Yawgy real harm. And Bolas was promptly disabled by a single, trough cunning, non-planeswalker.
(I think we can add much understanding to the older story in retrospect. Tetsuo possibly did used some trick here and there, but the real reason he wasnt afraid of Bolas all that much wan an ancient weapon he inherited from his grand-grandfather, in a form of seemingly uselless dusted fork with hundreds of counters accumulated trough millenia;-)))))
makes me wonder overall who would prevail in an imaginary YawgieVsNB fight:D
However, regarding "killing the planeswalker" theme, I believe, the real trick is very often not in raw power. Somewhere in Urza's saga he, being already a Walker and posessing some knack for war mashines, had to run and hide from Phyrexian Negators - big, bad, but I doubt remotely as powerful as any Walker should be, half-machines.
2) I dont remember exactly - was Bolas Walker already when he got his card?:o If not so, he isnt all THAT OLD, in a meaning that known timelinme remebers him a lesser being. If so, well, arent we supposed to live without Walker's cards?
3) Regarding "nowadays" walkers on cards case, portraying some "guise" by which they go is a tried and tested solution, since it's widely agreed that Blind Seer is nobody but Urza himself.
4, aka side note:) I think loosing the Spark is partially good thing for Teferi. Somewhy all inhabitants of Tolaria had various "alternatives" in their psychie, in a meaning you call idiots alternatively gifted:D And being a Walker puts additional strain, anyone else noticed Teferi being little bit less then sane? Hopefully sort of "normal" life heals that somewhat:D
Well, he was a composite of the entire legacy. Perhaps Gerrard had the spark? Or maybe Ratepe or Mishra and that that spark ended up in the Might/Weakstone?
Nah, that's just rampant speculation. I think he had two. Urza's & Glacian's.
From what I remember fo Urza's cycle books, there was a "single" "boon", Glacian's, that included many powers and presumably a spark among'em, all manifested in an artifact that in it's shattered form is known as Might/Weakstone.
Not sure if detalis were even given (dont remember that, at least), but executing Sylex blast Urza somehow got both parts, mind you, of a single "Glacian's Boon", installed in his eye sokets, simutaneously (and presumably subsequently - everyone tells us readers that, but this happens to contradict with CenCon theory somewhat:D ) becoming a Walker.
So following the "core logic" there was but one spark, Glacian's. later on the Apoc story, Gerrard will kindly "remove" those Might/Weakstones from Ursa's still-living head (hate to imagine the procedure:o ), thus, according to the book, ending Urza's existence. Then he placed both stones into the Karn and pressed them together, what worked off wonderfully well. (bad guys die, good guys live- some of'em, Apoc ends, e t.c.). And the spark we were hearing about moved on to Karn, making him an unique Walking golem, not as if other Walkers arent almost all "unique" in a sence, but... pff... well, back on topic;-)
As for Center of Conciousness, this theory plays well with Walkers who ascended themselves one way or another. But Urza (and later Karn) is a contradicting case for me. By gettign Glacian's eyes and Spark, he didnt took on a Glacian's PERSONA, what makes me think that his Conciousness, in a sence of who he is, was a separate thing from his Walking Ability, aka Spark, that had a material manifestation in the form of his powerstoned-eyes.
At some point of fight in a Serra's Realm Urza got his eyes removed for a moment (Radiant too tried to patch'em together, got the "normal" result in a form of self-annihillation, after what Urza planted his eyes back and teleported somewhere as if noone's business). While being blind and unable to Walk, what is logical, Urza remained himself somewhat:
Blind and gaping, his head staved, Urza struggled against tumbling walls of pain. He clutched to her. (Radiant) She was all that kept him aloft. He had to heal. He had to rebuild his being. He could not. Part of that being-the only part that was not a mere projection of his mind-had been ripped away. Those gems defined him. They were at the heart of the Brothers' War: Might-stone and Weakstone. They had been his eyes since the blast at Argoth. They had been his eyes since he had become a planes-walker. They were at the heart of his
madness, his power.
Even in his dying agony-for, yes, he was dying: his
power was also his weakness-Urza realized how like Karn he was. They were both defined by stones set in their heads. Both lived with them and died without them. Mightstone and Weakstone - they were Urza's affective and cognitive cortex. Without them, he was destroyed.
So he could remain himself and keep thinking with eyes removed, even if weakened and dying. Not so in a case of CenCon theory, which suggests that with cented of Conciousness destroyed (ripped apart, in this case), Walker cease to function. And here Urza clearly states that "projection of his mind" is one thing and Spark-and other good thing-gifting powerstones are the other.:)
Please don't double post in the future. Use the EDIT button to modify your first post instead.
I think the fact is, Even if bolas died, he was in a sealed plane. He did not disspate into nothingness, his will, soul, and thus Spark remained. Slowly, increadibly slowly, he was able to piece himself back together. Dead or not, he was still cognizant.
Think of him less as dead and more like Dark Depths It took an enormous ammount of mana for him to return. But, since his mana base was destroyed... It took even loner.
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1 - I hesiate to call Bolas a Yawgy-Lite. The two characters share at least as many dissimilarities as similarities. As far as Urza having difficulty with negators, remember that negators were specifically made by the most powerful armed force in the multiverse for the specific purpose of destroying 'walkers. Phyrexia has loads of experience dealing with 'walkers. Phyrexia was created by one, so the plane itself (a somewhat conscious being) has plenty of experience with them. Urza attacked Phyrexia with one of the most powerful artifact weapons of its time, only to be repelled easily. Surely a lot of data was gathered on 'walkers during his failed attack. But the most concrete evidence that negators are indeed teh win has to do, in my opinion, with Leshrac's imprisonment in Phyrexia for centuries at the hands of Taysir. With a planeswalker possessing the power levels of Leshrac contained for such a long time, Phyrexia was bound to learn lots and lots about what it takes to bring 'walkers to the brink of death. Negators were a far cry from the typical half-machine cannon fodder of Phyrexia.
(Which brings up another nifty pointless debate: How many negators would it take to destroy Nicol Bolas. Since Urza took out quite a few during Bloodlines, I'd say it'd take quite a few more to pose a problem for Bolas. 30 at once? Arbitrary, but fun.)
2 - The card for Nicol Bolas was Bolas as an Elder Dragon, not a 'walker. Legends has no timeline, though. Legends I happened sometime after the Flood Ages and Legends II happened "shortly" before the Mirage War. Other Legends (from the set) existed even prior to the Thran Empire. The Elder Dragon Wars, as confirmed by numerous WotC sources, occurred roughly 25,000 years before the birth of Urza. He's old. Roughly 29,500 years old. In another 500 years, we can celebrate his 30,000th birthday. I'll bring the beer if someone else buys the cake.
3 - Correct. But the Nicol Bolas card wasn't a "powered-down" version of Bolas. It was Bolas before he ascended.
4 - Teferi losing his spark is a very interesting twist, with lots of potential consequences for the next two books. I just really hope it doesn't become a recurring theme. If it takes a 'walker voluntarily giving up his spark to close the time rifts, we're going to run out of 'walkers pretty quickly. I have some dreadful feeling that Karn is going to be the next to give up his spark. This will make me cry.
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The quote about Bolas clearly states that his "mind, body, and spirit," all the things that are said to be essential for a planeswalker, are "broken and lost," which is pretty different from "destroyed." It looks to me like, as John mentioned, he was pretty scrambled up and sealed away, but not necessarily to such a point that he would have lost his planeswalking spark or really died, whatever that means.
Never called Bolas exactly "Yawgy-like". Rather, I would hate to once again have omnipotent arch-villain who, frankily, can accomplish nothing over the course of 10-15 books and timeless ages, most of the time accomplishing nothing even without sound opposition:D And I sence this exactly drift - hope I'm wrong.
(Which brings up another nifty pointless debate: How many negators would it take to destroy Nicol Bolas. Since Urza took out quite a few during Bloodlines, I'd say it'd take quite a few more to pose a problem for Bolas. 30 at once? Arbitrary, but fun.)
It's infact a little deeper theme to me, as to how we can grade known Walkers by their "power level". For example, given some non-impossible time and reference salvage (or blueprints) Urza, in theory where he's still with us, can reproduce Negators, possibly even "improving the design" (I can bet that's ont of the most used phrase describing various artifice in official books:cool: ). What technically makes him quite a match for Bolas who afair dont bother with exessive handywork. And no, Umezawa genocide should not be considered an "exessive handywork" in this definition.
Turing the table, Yawgie, as we seen him "in personae" in Apoc, was totally immune to any number of Negators, non-Legacied Weatherlights, and, well, most of all known weapons and spells. Does this qualify him for "the most powerful Walker known"?
Again, on the battlefield later Urza's design artifice (Thaddeus/Agnate, anyone?) usually more then kept up with all Yawgie's creations, especially considering Urza never got a nine-sphered factory to work at.
Serra, the second Walker we seen in details building OWN world (an accomplishment, I guess), got all her "very elite angel forces" of that whole world, what we should percieve as her "level of firepower", later held off and generally defeated by one "melee" Walker of non-Ancient level (Guess who:D ), two dragons, battleship and mortal archmage. Doesnt seems like all too much for me, because that was basically the average size of an average regional battle during Invasion.
So, would Bolas come up with ingenious idea of his own (5 same Invasion great dragons? Artifice, summonables, undead, whatever... - in quantities), an what level of this chain he can pe planted;-)?
Or, would Bolas and Yawgie meet face-to-face (fangs - to -cloud actually), who's spell or ability will win the day? (I, for one, would bet on Bolas spell-to-spell and on Yawgie army-to-army. A tie?)
2 - The card for Nicol Bolas was Bolas as an Elder Dragon, not a 'walker. Legends has no timeline, though. Legends I happened sometime after the Flood Ages and Legends II happened "shortly" before the Mirage War. Other Legends (from the set) existed even prior to the Thran Empire. The Elder Dragon Wars, as confirmed by numerous WotC sources, occurred roughly 25,000 years before the birth of Urza. He's old. Roughly 29,500 years old. In another 500 years, we can celebrate his 30,000th birthday. I'll bring the beer if someone else buys the cake.
Very thank you for the info, never knew!:) I will certainly join'ya as soon as I get approved credentials in most or all Multiverse worlds stating my family name is not Umezawa.:) Think if I start now might aswell be ready in time.:rolleyes:
4 - Teferi losing his spark is a very interesting twist, with lots of potential consequences for the next two books. I just really hope it doesn't become a recurring theme. If it takes a 'walker voluntarily giving up his spark to close the time rifts, we're going to run out of 'walkers pretty quickly. I have some dreadful feeling that Karn is going to be the next to give up his spark. This will make me cry.
Since there are way more Walkers in Multiverse then Walker character in books, what was referenced many times, I guess, mr. writer can just keep pulling plugs for time rifts from the sleeve.:D Would be a nice Un-block mood, just imagine it;-P For two books and a half it all goes on. then a previously unknown Walker comes, introduces himself, seals the rift and is gone/forgotten. All in 4-5 sentences. Repeat 4 more times. THAT would be a "book review" thread!!!:D
There was a deep discussion of "as an additional cost to play this spell, sacrifice a Spark" thing. I really have hard times seeing interesting consequences trough. Maybe that's just because I like Blue Archmages as core heros, the stronger the better:D
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Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing. And due to the "time spiralling" nature of this set, I think the book actually fits it pretty well. Sure it's not gonna become a literary masterpiece, regarded by all as one of the greatest books ever, but at the same time I think it will fit well with the other two novels when they're released. This book seems to be a giant question mark. Was it good? Was it bad? I don't think we'll be able to finally judge until after Future sight is out... once we see just how well all the loose ends are tied up.
I started reading Time Spiral expecting Teferi to lose his spark, to learn of a distorted and dying dominaria, and be introduced to a few new key characters, and be re-introduced to a few others, namely Jhoira, Nicol Bolas and Freyalise. That's all the info I had when I first started reading. I wasn't dissapointed, because I got all that and more. Not much more, like one might hope, but at least not less. It could have been better, yes, but it could have been oh so much worse.
I don't know about anyone else, but this book has gotten me excited over the following questions:
Nicol Bolas - Madara - Kamigawa connection in the next sets?
The Urborg Dragon... where's it from?
Is Teferi really no longer a planeswalker?
What's the deal with Radha, Venser and the Rifts?
Speakin of the rifts, what's the deal with Venser's machine?
If Shiv has returned properly, how long before Zhalfir arrives?
How are the new arrival Shivans dealing with the current Shivans?
DID Shiv really return properly?
What role will Windgrace and Freyalise play in the next books (and sets)?
All questions that I think probably have to be answered. I can't wait!
As far as good series that dont? Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Syphony of Ages, The Spellsong Cycle, Tears of Artamon, A Song of Fire and Ice, The Chronicles of Magravandias, to name the ones that are sitting in my dorm room.
Reguardless of whether or not LoTR was supposed to be one long book or not, the fact remains that it is indeed a trilogy, just as much as the original Star Wars movies are. They only reason they're not one movie is because no one could sit through a 9 hour movie.
Yes, they stand alone a bit, but you need a lot of background information to know what the heck is going on. You can certaintly jump into the middle of them, but you can do the same to anything. It just doesn't make much sense.
Edit: Also, as I've said in this thread a few times now, as far as I can see it, none of the magic 'trilogies' are supposed to stand alone. I look at them as one book, just as LoTR is.
anyway, i only have one question
when they're seeing the different planeswalkers that protect the different lands throughout time, and they come to argoth, it was page 193
"His motion slowed and Teferi found himself high over a different forest one with massive, healthy trees. A beautiful blonde woman dressed all in green stood balanced on the tip of a tall pine. She was weeping."
who was the blonde woman?
freyalise hadn't even been born during the time of the brothers war, and titania wasn't a planeswalker, so who was the woman?
is it supposed to be gaea, finally given an actual form? did they ignore everything they've written about freyalise and its really her, or maybe titania? is it someone else entirely?
Thanks for the thoughtful and sharp-eyed post, by the way:D .
As to your question, short answer: no
Longer answer: I based that scene of Radha (temporarily) besting Teferi on the planeswalker model established by Rob King in Time Streams and more directly in The Thran. I believe this is also one of the foundations of the CenCon theory, so it's perfectly natural that they'd agree. I wasn't fully aware of the CenCon theory when I wrote this bit and I wasn't explicitly referring to the theory, but I did write it that way to confirm this particular detail about planeswalkers and the way they are.
So yeah, it's a nod to anyone who ever thought about this enough to wonder how a planeswalker's transcendent mind and body work. I knew that would include proponents of the CC Theory, but beyond that it wasn't intended as a direct shout out to the theory itself.
But hey, at least we settled one aspect of it....
McG
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"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
Bingo!:D
Killing me not to, but can't say. If you still don't know at the end of the trilogy, I'll be happy to answer.
Though I can say it was my intent to show that neither Teferi nor Jhoira was completely phased out since the Invasion like Shiv and Zhalfir...my personal opinion is that there was no way Teferi could just walk away without peeking to see what happened.
But let me use what is definitely in print so I can elaborate: The existence of Jhoira's workshop in the first chapter of Time Spiral proves she and Teferi have been unphased and active for some time. The book also hints that in addition to the disruptive effect of the rifts themselves, Karona's world-altering presence helped throw Teferi off so he's about 100+ years off from where he thought he'd be.
I think that helps account for some of the gaps in his information--as he started preparing to return for Shiv, he didn't realize he was looking at the situation from a slightly skewed perspective. It's a bit like he studied for the wrong test and has to make do with the answers he does know.
Hope that helps and doesn't reek of cop-out.
McG
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"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
Again i contend Bolas' exaggeration of what occurred. He made himself seem unkillable in the face of new faces, likely an intimidation tactic or again a stroke of his own ego.
He wasn't destroyed, he was trapped.
Mr.McGough please elaborate.
I think i'll make that deal. If not i'll send you Legends II free.
Bolas in fact says that the act won't kill him, and he'd return to avenge the act. I promise you he didn't die, on the mediation/mediatation plane, your mind is present, which is all a planeswalker needs to survive. However, without mana to draw upon (a Bogardan Hammer thrown at his manabase, utterly destroying it), he couldn't act. That didn't mean his mind couldn't self-preserve and he knew this.
The fact of the matter is the spark itself is enough to keep Bolas' mind alive and well. As soon as a source came through (Radha), he was able to return to material world, and thus was back on Dominaria in reality. Wasn't destroyed, was exaggerating.
1) He somewhat appears to be a "Yawgy wannabe" for future plotline - very old, very strong, not exactly good and with a manner for converting people to his point of view "the hard way".
However, it took Urza millenia to nurture Gerrard plus whole Weatherlight/Legacy thing to do Yawgy real harm. And Bolas was promptly disabled by a single, trough cunning, non-planeswalker.
(I think we can add much understanding to the older story in retrospect. Tetsuo possibly did used some trick here and there, but the real reason he wasnt afraid of Bolas all that much wan an ancient weapon he inherited from his grand-grandfather, in a form of seemingly uselless dusted fork with hundreds of counters accumulated trough millenia;-)))))
makes me wonder overall who would prevail in an imaginary YawgieVsNB fight:D
However, regarding "killing the planeswalker" theme, I believe, the real trick is very often not in raw power. Somewhere in Urza's saga he, being already a Walker and posessing some knack for war mashines, had to run and hide from Phyrexian Negators - big, bad, but I doubt remotely as powerful as any Walker should be, half-machines.
2) I dont remember exactly - was Bolas Walker already when he got his card?:o If not so, he isnt all THAT OLD, in a meaning that known timelinme remebers him a lesser being. If so, well, arent we supposed to live without Walker's cards?
3) Regarding "nowadays" walkers on cards case, portraying some "guise" by which they go is a tried and tested solution, since it's widely agreed that Blind Seer is nobody but Urza himself.
4, aka side note:) I think loosing the Spark is partially good thing for Teferi. Somewhy all inhabitants of Tolaria had various "alternatives" in their psychie, in a meaning you call idiots alternatively gifted:D And being a Walker puts additional strain, anyone else noticed Teferi being little bit less then sane? Hopefully sort of "normal" life heals that somewhat:D
From what I remember fo Urza's cycle books, there was a "single" "boon", Glacian's, that included many powers and presumably a spark among'em, all manifested in an artifact that in it's shattered form is known as Might/Weakstone.
Not sure if detalis were even given (dont remember that, at least), but executing Sylex blast Urza somehow got both parts, mind you, of a single "Glacian's Boon", installed in his eye sokets, simutaneously (and presumably subsequently - everyone tells us readers that, but this happens to contradict with CenCon theory somewhat:D ) becoming a Walker.
So following the "core logic" there was but one spark, Glacian's. later on the Apoc story, Gerrard will kindly "remove" those Might/Weakstones from Ursa's still-living head (hate to imagine the procedure:o ), thus, according to the book, ending Urza's existence. Then he placed both stones into the Karn and pressed them together, what worked off wonderfully well. (bad guys die, good guys live- some of'em, Apoc ends, e t.c.). And the spark we were hearing about moved on to Karn, making him an unique Walking golem, not as if other Walkers arent almost all "unique" in a sence, but... pff... well, back on topic;-)
As for Center of Conciousness, this theory plays well with Walkers who ascended themselves one way or another. But Urza (and later Karn) is a contradicting case for me. By gettign Glacian's eyes and Spark, he didnt took on a Glacian's PERSONA, what makes me think that his Conciousness, in a sence of who he is, was a separate thing from his Walking Ability, aka Spark, that had a material manifestation in the form of his powerstoned-eyes.
At some point of fight in a Serra's Realm Urza got his eyes removed for a moment (Radiant too tried to patch'em together, got the "normal" result in a form of self-annihillation, after what Urza planted his eyes back and teleported somewhere as if noone's business). While being blind and unable to Walk, what is logical, Urza remained himself somewhat:
So he could remain himself and keep thinking with eyes removed, even if weakened and dying. Not so in a case of CenCon theory, which suggests that with cented of Conciousness destroyed (ripped apart, in this case), Walker cease to function. And here Urza clearly states that "projection of his mind" is one thing and Spark-and other good thing-gifting powerstones are the other.:)
Please don't double post in the future. Use the EDIT button to modify your first post instead.
-the Squirle master
Think of him less as dead and more like Dark Depths It took an enormous ammount of mana for him to return. But, since his mana base was destroyed... It took even loner.
(Which brings up another nifty pointless debate: How many negators would it take to destroy Nicol Bolas. Since Urza took out quite a few during Bloodlines, I'd say it'd take quite a few more to pose a problem for Bolas. 30 at once? Arbitrary, but fun.)
2 - The card for Nicol Bolas was Bolas as an Elder Dragon, not a 'walker. Legends has no timeline, though. Legends I happened sometime after the Flood Ages and Legends II happened "shortly" before the Mirage War. Other Legends (from the set) existed even prior to the Thran Empire. The Elder Dragon Wars, as confirmed by numerous WotC sources, occurred roughly 25,000 years before the birth of Urza. He's old. Roughly 29,500 years old. In another 500 years, we can celebrate his 30,000th birthday. I'll bring the beer if someone else buys the cake.
3 - Correct. But the Nicol Bolas card wasn't a "powered-down" version of Bolas. It was Bolas before he ascended.
4 - Teferi losing his spark is a very interesting twist, with lots of potential consequences for the next two books. I just really hope it doesn't become a recurring theme. If it takes a 'walker voluntarily giving up his spark to close the time rifts, we're going to run out of 'walkers pretty quickly. I have some dreadful feeling that Karn is going to be the next to give up his spark. This will make me cry.
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It's infact a little deeper theme to me, as to how we can grade known Walkers by their "power level". For example, given some non-impossible time and reference salvage (or blueprints) Urza, in theory where he's still with us, can reproduce Negators, possibly even "improving the design" (I can bet that's ont of the most used phrase describing various artifice in official books:cool: ). What technically makes him quite a match for Bolas who afair dont bother with exessive handywork. And no, Umezawa genocide should not be considered an "exessive handywork" in this definition.
Turing the table, Yawgie, as we seen him "in personae" in Apoc, was totally immune to any number of Negators, non-Legacied Weatherlights, and, well, most of all known weapons and spells. Does this qualify him for "the most powerful Walker known"?
Again, on the battlefield later Urza's design artifice (Thaddeus/Agnate, anyone?) usually more then kept up with all Yawgie's creations, especially considering Urza never got a nine-sphered factory to work at.
Serra, the second Walker we seen in details building OWN world (an accomplishment, I guess), got all her "very elite angel forces" of that whole world, what we should percieve as her "level of firepower", later held off and generally defeated by one "melee" Walker of non-Ancient level (Guess who:D ), two dragons, battleship and mortal archmage. Doesnt seems like all too much for me, because that was basically the average size of an average regional battle during Invasion.
So, would Bolas come up with ingenious idea of his own (5 same Invasion great dragons? Artifice, summonables, undead, whatever... - in quantities), an what level of this chain he can pe planted;-)?
Or, would Bolas and Yawgie meet face-to-face (fangs - to -cloud actually), who's spell or ability will win the day? (I, for one, would bet on Bolas spell-to-spell and on Yawgie army-to-army. A tie?)
Very thank you for the info, never knew!:) I will certainly join'ya as soon as I get approved credentials in most or all Multiverse worlds stating my family name is not Umezawa.:) Think if I start now might aswell be ready in time.:rolleyes:
Since there are way more Walkers in Multiverse then Walker character in books, what was referenced many times, I guess, mr. writer can just keep pulling plugs for time rifts from the sleeve.:D Would be a nice Un-block mood, just imagine it;-P For two books and a half it all goes on. then a previously unknown Walker comes, introduces himself, seals the rift and is gone/forgotten. All in 4-5 sentences. Repeat 4 more times. THAT would be a "book review" thread!!!:D
There was a deep discussion of "as an additional cost to play this spell, sacrifice a Spark" thing. I really have hard times seeing interesting consequences trough. Maybe that's just because I like Blue Archmages as core heros, the stronger the better:D