This discussion began on the "Ask the Author(s)" thread, but I feel that it is best given a thread of its own, as there is much discussion involved, not just a Q&A--though any input from Will McDermott or Cory Herndon would be much appreciated and very helpful!
We are not so much concerned about where the inhabitants of Mirrodin came from (okay, well, we are, but that would be another thread, without many clues to find an answer), but how they were brought to--or arrived on--Mirrodin.
Did Memnarch travel to other worlds to find them--did he planeswalk or use a portal? Did he used magic--or magic powered by technology--to pull beings from other worlds? Did the soul traps bring beings to Mirrodin--or do they just keep the souls from leaving Mirrodin?
Below is the debate thus far, from the "Ask the Author(s)" thread:
Sleeping Villian
in order to send the Mirari and other probes to other planes, he had to make those things TRANSVERSE and get to the other planes, and being a Walker that's not the craziest idea that he might have a Walk' Spell in addition to a Walk' Ability.
It's even feasible that he needn't walk to drop off the probes, and the Mirari was such a highly intelligent piece of Karn, that it picked up on the spell cast on it to send it to Dominaria, and later used it when becoming Memnarch, to send HIS soul traps like Karn did the probes before him to other planes to collect specimens for Mirrodin.
MORT
Memnarch hasn't any Walk spell. He used technology I think (I didn't read these books though...). and he probably could create portal if he want... but he didn't (so maybe he couldn't(?)). After all he used that whole technology to gain powers of planeswalker - ability of walkin planes. So why he would try to gain them if he was actually able to walking planes?
Zazdor
I will admit my memory of Mirrodin is rather hazy, however, let me try.
After Karn created Memnarch, he left Argentum, right? It was not until after he left that Memnarch finally decided to import creatures. The soul traps kept the peoples of Mirrodin on Mirrodin. So, what if the soul traps used their abilities to capture souls from other worlds?
Perhaps the traps themselves had magic or capabilities to "capture" souls of beings as they left their worlds. These souls would be brought to Mirrodin by the traps's powers, and . . . well, here's the problem. How were they actually born?
Memnarch may have developed technology to "summon" random creatures from across the multiverse to Mirrodin. Or, captured souls and transported creatures with the traps, so a living creature would be brought to Mirrodin, and its soul would be tied. That way, the living creature's memory of the homeworld would remain intact. Then, when the creature died, the soul was bound to Mirrodin.
Does that mean Mirrodin beings would be reborn after so many generations?
I haven't read Mirrodin since it's release, and I don't recall a similar discussion about the traps when we originally discussed the trilogy.
I highly doubt Memnarch planeswalked or used a portal to leave Mirrodin. I also do not think he actively summoned or chose the beings that were brought to Mirrodin. The soul traps or other technology had to have played a role. The opening of Moons of Mirrodin must give us some clue--does anyone have their book handy?
Sleeping Villian
I'm not claiming that Memnarch was a Walker', but we can't overlook the similarities between the instance of Karn sending pieces of himself (probes, aka Mirari, etc) much like Memnarch sent Soul Traps to other planes.
My problem with Memnarch being super-genius-artifact builder is that he needed Slobad to build his "spark replacement" device, so i find a problem in that the Soul Traps were such powerful devices that they could suck souls from other world FROM Mirrodin. That seems like quite a power, for someone who needs a Goblins help with artifacts and all.
I'm claiming that since it was never described how the probes got to the other planes (whether or not Karn dropped them off himself, or sent them from Mirrodin), once could theorize (which i am doing) that in fact the Mirari kept knowledge of the spell cast on it to 'Walk, and when it became Memnarch preserved the knowledge for later.
So that he could use them to gather specimens from other planes. These creatures couldn't have been Walkers, so i'd further speculate that upon release of the traps, many beings that don't belong in the Blind Eternities passing through, combined with the Phasing of Shiv/Zhalfir back into Dominaria may in fact be the cause of the Time Spiral/Disturbance.
But regardless of speculation, the matter of the Soul Traps clearly needs to be answered. Mr. Herndon, if you would?
Zazdor
My only problem with Memnarch having powers similar to planeswalkers--like planeswalking, or plucking beings from other worlds--is that if he has those powers, why would he search for a spark? I think if he had the ability to travel between worlds, or pull from other worlds, those abilities would have been taken advantage of more when we saw Memnarch in action.
As I said, I don't recall the end of Fifth Dawn, so I don't really remember at all how the Ascension Web and all worked. The last discussion on that (from what I recall) was on the MtGNews CenCon thread, but our work there ended soon after that discussion began. Anyway--without a book, I don't know how much more help I can be. And until we know more on the soul traps . . . perhaps we can start a new thread and Cory can respond there? And if Will stops by--does he post here anymore? It's worth a thread, but I have to be off now.
Cory--can you offer any insights?
Before Cory or anyone else offers insights or suggestions, here is an excerpt from The Breaking Fifth Dawnarticle by Rei Nakazawa (May 3rd, 2004):
To Memnarch, the mad artifact creature who has schemed for millennia to stop his own impending transformation and escape the confines of Mirrodin, the appearance of the sun is a mere distraction. In fact, the ascendance opens the opportunity to enact a new plan, one that will allow him to gain the power of a planeswalker. Then, nothing would be able to stop him from ending his internal corruptions, and gaining access to the planes beyond
Then there are the disappearances. Creatures and citizens alike have been vanishing, seemingly at random. Where have they gone, and why? Does all this have something to do with the origins of life itself on Mirrodin? Even Memnarch's most trusted allies are not immune to these strange events, and in the end, it may be these vanishings that turn the tide one way or the other in the battle for control of the plane. Everything the maddened Memnarch ever wanted is within reach. All his traps have been laid, and all his plans have begun to take hold. He is at the apex of his power. The time will never be better, and the prospect laid out before him on a silver platter will never come again. Now that an entire planet, his entire planet, is turned against him, he will seize the opportunity that has been given to him.
So, Memnarch may not have planeswalking abilities according to this article. But the article also suggested that something else had to do with the inhabitants's origins. I gather for this to mean the soul traps--but how did they work?
I do not have my novels with me to reference. Can anyone post excerpts from the prologue of Moons of Mirrodin (the timeline of events that changed Argentum to Mirrodin--anything that mentions the arrival of life to the plane) and the workings of the soul traps from Fifth Dawn?
Perhaps, Memnarch had a planeswalking ability or spell in the beginning, but was not as powerful as an actual planeswalker. When he had the ability, he traveled across planes looking at the new sights and sounds and he began gathering creatures. He gathers the creatures because he is a scientist and wants to study them. As he takes the new species back to Mirrodin, Karn comes back, and sees Memnarch. Karn does not want Memnarch planeswalking around uncontrolled, so he disables that ability and then leaves. Memnarch is now very mad at Karn for taking away his power and wants it back… thus, he begins his search for a creature on Mirrodin with the spark so he can take it and become a planeswalker to travel the Multiverse once more…
I do not think Karn would have returned after he created Memnarch. Also, I would hope that Karn would have not originally granted Memnarch (“The Guardian”) planeswalking abilities. After he was stupid enough to create the Mirari (after seeing the devastating effects of Urza’s interventions on Dominaria), he better not have granted the Guardian planeswalking abilities. I would hope Karn would have learned not to give his creations such power.
The Prologue from Moons of Mirrodin does not suggest that Karn returned.
Here are some excerpts in regards in Memnarch bringing life to Mirrodin:
Moons of Mirrodin, page 5:
Would it be so dangerous to bring some of that world here? Would not the mathematical perfection of Karn’s new world be enhanced by the introduction of the best elements of his old world? Memnarch couldn’t help thinking that this stale and monochrome world needed a splash of color, a small infusion of life, just a little uncertainty to take the hard edge off its fractal facade. “There are so many other worlds that Karn’s probes explored,” said Memnarch as he reached the doors to the palace. “Why stop at emulating their features? I have the entire multiverse at my disposal. All of Karn’s research and data is stored within these walls. He brought the star-creatures here from somewhere. Perhaps I can learn how to send probes out and bring other creatures here as well. I can re-make this world into a living, breathing, vibrant world.”
It appears that somehow Memnarch created probes—or used ones Karn had previously made. He must have used . . . magic? Or the probes had the capabilities to be sent between worlds. Perhaps there was an artifact in Galdroon (the palace) that created and sent probes? There is no indication Memnarch himself could planeswalk--indeed, it seems he used probes. However, we do not know any link between the probes and how they retrieved creatures, and the workings of the soul traps.
Also, he did not begin bringing creatures to Mirrodin until after the “black smudge” infiltrated his matrix. He had the idea to bring creatures to Mirrodin before then, but did not begin the process of bringing beings to his world until after the oil had been taken in. I do not think that it has much to do with how Memnarch got the beings to Mirrodin, but it’s a note to make regardless.
Could Memnarch possibly have been given a super-scrying pool? Like one that can see other planes, and maybe he has some way to place soul traps on other worlds to gather souls to bring to Mirrodin.
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Because South (Jersey) is where it's at.
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Memnarch noted that the walls of Galdroon had information from all the worlds Karn had traveled or sent probes to:
Moons of Mirrodin, page 5:
“There are so many other worlds that Karn’s probes explored,” said Memnarch as he reached the doors to the palace. “Why stop at emulating their features? I have the entire multiverse at my disposal. All of Karn’s research and data is stored within these walls. He brought the star-creatures here from somewhere. Perhaps
I can learn how to send probes out and bring other creatures here as well. I can re-make this world into a living, breathing, vibrant world.”
Karn's research perhaps provided information about many of the worlds. It is possible that the loxodons and/or vedalken were from Ravnica, and Karn had visited there or sent a probe--Memnarch saw these creatures from the information (I assume he accessed it in a manner similar to telepathy from the walls, as he was part of Karn's creation, just like Galdroon), and brought them with a spell or probe of some kind.
Also looking at this excerpt, Memnarch noted that Karn brought the blinkmoths ("the star-creatures") to Argentum/Mirrodin. Apparently, there were probes like the Mirari that observed, but also probes that abducted creatures. It would be these second types of probes that Memnarch would use--he does not say create even, but "send," suggesting that they were already made. So, Karn left probes that would allow Memnarch to send them to worlds gleaned from the walls of Galdroon, and bring the beings to Mirrodin.
While the first type of probes can just be referred to as probes (like the Mirari, which was far too powerful and influential--it was an active probe), the second type of probe may have a different name . . .
. . . a soul trap.
Can someone find an excerpt from The Fifth Dawn (as I do not believe they are referenced in The Darksteel Eye.
Cory (and Will, if you're around): Any thoughts/comments/additions?
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
Remember that Memnarch was made from the Mirari, which was a part of Karn. My belief was always that Memnarch had access to all of Karn's knowledge, including information about Urza's experiments in artifice. Memnarch, not being a planeswalker - or a magician, really - thus turned to artifice for his answers.
The soul traps were simply artifacts that Memnarch created or altered from Karn's probes. They were designed for planar travel and retrieval. Just as Weatherlight could travel the planes without a planeswalker aboard, so could the soul traps.
Once there, they lured beings indiscriminately from the area into the trap, which then transported them back to Mirrodin. Recall one of Glissa's early flares, where she sees herself (but not really herself) as a regular elf (no metal) being pulled toward a distant light. That was a racial memory of the soul trap taking her people.
So, artifice. That was my rationale, at least. I cannot say if that is official canon, because it was left pretty vague within the actual books.
MORT: I don't think I took it too literally. There was no mention of paper or anything. In a metallic world, I was thinking of information stored as it in on a computer (but that like that exactly, since there are no computers in the Magic multiverse that we have yet seen). So, Memnarch would "plug in" or get in tune with it, and then he'd "upload" all the information. He was part of Galdroon since he was Karn's creation, so would be able to access the information.
Thanks, Will! That was easy enough! Self-powered planestraveling rat-traps (or vedalken-traps, or elf-traps, whatever). Karn's pretty talented. Again, I am amazed he left such power with Memnarch. Memnarch, on his own--not because of the oil even--decided to use the equipment. Urza left his Legacy around and it caused chaos--granted, it worked, but resulted in much destruction (just look at Vuel, who killed Kondo because of Gerrard and the Legacy). I am still surprised that Karn allowed such power to be left behind while he was gone. Argentum was quite the experiment. It's Karn's version of Tolaria and time travel--good idea that went horribly wrong. You can tell Urza crafted him. But perhaps I am too harsh.
I had completely forgotten about Glissa's flashes.
I have one more question on the soul traps--what was their purpose once they retrieved beings from other worlds? Did they act as a reincarnation device? When one of Mirrodin's inhabitants died, was the soul later reused? Why were they called soul traps? Or, was their only other purpose to return everyone to their respective worlds (or at least a new world) after Memnarch was destroyed? (This answer may be best answered by Cory, but perhaps Will has a response? Or, if anyone can yet provide excerpts from the books, we can work off that!)
(I wish I had my novels handy...)
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
So how far off was I really? I mean, regardless, the power Memnarch has is truly great. So he doesn't have a walking spell, it really makes more sense continuity wise for the Traps to be able to walk themselves so i'm not complaining.
Although last time i checked, The Weatherlight was a pretty powerful assemblage of artifacts to be able to Walk itself.
Mr.McDermott- When Memnarch sent out the Soul Traps (in your opinion, not officially), would they all have returned to Mirrodin at the same time, or would they come in one by one? So many powerful artifacts going through the BE at once could have disasterous effects on it, wouldn't you agree?
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The Legendary Storyline Poster--- Ixidorsdreams (yeah, it was me ;))
I would not assume that the soul traps would have any effect on the time streams, sleeping villian, as I am guessing that that is what you are aiming for. A bunch of small soul traps would have little impact when you consider people walk through portals, planeswalkers go through the Blind Eternities, and things like the Weatherlight travel as well. The soul traps would be harmless to the Blind Eternities (and the time streams). Karn sent a bunch of probes out at the same time, to no adverse effect. I wouldn't call the traps powerful, either. Though the Weatherlight needed the powerstone core and Ertai to originally planeshift (except when Urza used it), these soul traps may have a combination of artifice and magic. Think of Phyrexian ambulators used as portals. Similar concept, but on the soul traps.
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
Memnarch was simply trying to populate his world with more living beings. The soul traps were sent out to capture specimens for his little zoo. I would guess they came back randonmly, and I don't know that he had any specific plan for where he put each race as the traps returned.
I also don't think they would have had any impact on the multiverse other than the local impact of dozens of denizens of a plane getting snatched up. Although I think it might make for an interesting story if there were some consequences to these abductions, but again, I doubt it would be anything that effected more than a single plane.
And, yes, this was a lot of power to leave behind for Memnarch. This is a common theme amongst planewalkers. They have all this power, but little common sense about how to use it (or even safeguard it against misuse). Hopefully Karn has learned his lesson this time. I think part of it was us authors punishing Karn for being so hard on Urza all those years. It's tough to handle all that power. That was the lesson he had to learn once he had it.
Thank you for the clearification on the soul traps. Is it possible further that some of the soul traps are still out there, considering it would have to capture something to return to Mirrodin? Would this also make it possible for someone to catch a ride to Mirrodin if their plane had an unused Soul Trap?
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The Legendary Storyline Poster--- Ixidorsdreams (yeah, it was me ;))
Thank you for the clearification on the soul traps. Is it possible further that some of the soul traps are still out there, considering it would have to capture something to return to Mirrodin? Would this also make it possible for someone to catch a ride to Mirrodin if their plane had an unused Soul Trap?
That's a pretty cool idea. I would say that it's definitely possible. Although the way I saw them working was that they were on a timer. They stayed open for a specfied time and then closed and returned. But if the Magic Continuity team wanted to pursue a storyline based on this idea (for a return to Mirrodin), I wouldn't see it as a stretch at all.
Yeah, i hate to throw obvious ideas out, but the first thought that came to mind was if Memnarch (with the unexplained oil on him) sent a soul trap to Phyrexia. I can think of a certain person who wouldnt mind a shiny new artificial plane.
And if they do return to Mirrodin, I hope the story is less "run run run". Glissa lost so much weight running i didn't know how she could still fight!
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The Legendary Storyline Poster--- Ixidorsdreams (yeah, it was me ;))
Yeah, i hate to throw obvious ideas out, but the first thought that came to mind was if Memnarch (with the unexplained oil on him) sent a soul trap to Phyrexia. I can think of a certain person who wouldnt mind a shiny new artificial plane.
And if they do return to Mirrodin, I hope the story is less "run run run". Glissa lost so much weight running i didn't know how she could still fight!
That's the problem with having a story set on an entire planet (even one as small as Mirrodin). It seems like with the current story, they've learned their lesson, setting it all within a city. Yeah, I would definitely lobby for any future story I write to be contained within a smaller area.
Originally posted by Cory on the "Ask the author" thread:
Originally Posted by MORT Memnarch hasn't any Walk spell. He used technology I think (I didn't read these books though...). and he probably could create portal if he want... but he didn't (so maybe he couldn't(?)). After all he used that whole technology to gain powers of planeswalker - ability of walkin planes. So why he would try to gain them if he was actually able to walking planes?
I think this point's been made already, but that's it exactly--Memnarch wanted, but never gained, the planewsalking ability in the Mirrodin books.
Originally Posted by Zazdor I will admit my memory of Mirrodin is rather hazy, however, let me try.
After Karn created Memnarch, he left Argentum, right? It was not until after he left that Memnarch finally decided to import creatures. The soul traps kept the peoples of Mirrodin on Mirrodin. So, what if the soul traps used their abilities to capture souls from other worlds?
Perhaps the traps themselves had magic or capabilities to "capture" souls of beings as they left their worlds. These souls would be brought to Mirrodin by the traps's powers, and . . . well, here's the problem. How were they actually born?
Memnarch may have developed technology to "summon" random creatures from across the multiverse to Mirrodin. Or, captured souls and transported creatures with the traps, so a living creature would be brought to Mirrodin, and its soul would be tied. That way, the living creature's memory of the homeworld would remain intact. Then, when the creature died, the soul was bound to Mirrodin.
Does that mean Mirrodin beings would be reborn after so many generations?
I haven't read Mirrodin since it's release, and I don't recall a similar discussion about the traps when we originally discussed the trilogy.
I did sort of picture Mirrodin as a closed soul system, if you will, that recycled souls as needed (but without messy karmic concerns). The population of Mirrodin was remarkably stable for this reason.
Man, I hope that doesn't contradict something I posted when the book was fresher in my mind.
Originally Posted by sleeping Villian <fascinating but bulky soul trap discussion snipped> But regardless of speculation, the matter of the Soul Traps clearly needs to be answered. Mr. Herndon, if you would?
Originally Posted by Zazdor Cory--can you offer any insights?
Not much more than what I wrote above--soul traps didn't physically move, exactly. If that doesn't answer it, let me know and I'll try to dig up more details (my memory gets hazy too.)
Originally Posted by sleeping Villian Mr. Herndon- Were the Soul Traps altered versions of the probes karn sent out to the many planes? I assumed different, thatr Memnarch built the Soul Traps and remembered the spell used to transport Mirari-Narch to Dominaria FROM Mirrodin (since we know Karona follows the string back in the Blind Eternities to find Mirrodin, then known as Argentum).
Is it possible that the Mirari was such an overly powerful piece of Karn, that it could remember as spell cast on it for later use in experiments with his Soul traps? Furthermore, explain the sequence of events following the release of the Soul Traps. Did the spirits or full formed creatures transport back to their worlds? If so, did they all do so simultaneously and did they travel through the Blind Eternities to get back? Or did they appear with a blink and nod like I Dream of Jeanie
Um....they left Mirrodin and ended up somewhere else? I didn't sweat these specific technical details a lot at that point in the story, honestly, thinking it left more story potential for the future to leave it vague (which I know can be frustrating). My knowledge of Karn's long and detailed history is also, frankly, not nearly as sharp as, say, Will's or Scott's.
Originally Posted by Zazdor Cory--if/when you respond to sleeping villian's question, could it be on the Memnarch thread, so the conversation isn't fractured? Thanks!
D'oh. Too late! Could you let them know?
So here it is.
Now, Will said the traps were sent out, but Cory mentiond them being stable. Here's my synthesis:
- Karn created the soul traps, or at least left the information to create them.
- Memnarch sent the soul traps out (and built them with Karn's knowledge if Karn hadn't left any).
- The soul traps arrived on the worlds, flashed open, abducted inhabitants(as seen in Glissa's flashes from Moons), and returned to Mirrodin
- Once the soul trap was used, the soul of the beings(s) captured by it were tied to the soul trap, keeping Mirrodin a "closed-soul" plane, where the souls would return to the soul trap, and would be re-used whenever a new being was conceived.
- The souls could have been released without the soul traps leaving Mirrodin after Memnarch's demise, but I think it would have been more efficient if they were sent back to their original worlds, released, and then the traps returned empty to Mirrodin (or were destroyed).
Thoughts?
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
Basically. It ties back into the "visions" Glissa was having of her previous life. I can't remember offhand if they were of her life on another plane, or if they were of her previous life (or if either was ever defined).
The trap would contain the soul of the being, but not the body the soul inhabits. Whenever someone dies, the body would return to the world and decompose, while the soul returns to the trap and awaits rebirth.
A very, very nice concept Zazdor. If that had been worked into the writing, itd have been muccch more intriguing. But as Mr.McDermott said, spreading the world out as he did, he didn't have the benefit of a closed, compact area like Ravnica, or even CHK for that matter if you've ever seen a map.
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The Legendary Storyline Poster--- Ixidorsdreams (yeah, it was me ;))
The traps were sent out and retrieved souls--and the beings that held them.
HOWEVER, once returned to Mirrodin, the soul traps STAYED on Mirrodin. Whenever a Mirrodin inhabitant died, its body died as usual, and the soul returned to the trap. When a new inhabitant was conceived (or whenever a soul would be instilled--there is no need for an Earth-based religious debate), the soul would be pulled from the trap to the being (on its own accord I would asume).
It's not quiet reincarnation, as the past lives would have no effect on the current life. There would be no karma (bad in first life, so punished in second life, or bumped to a lower caste). The "racial memories" would remain (in flares, or at least for some of the elves), but the new-born Mirrodin inhabitant would be a new personality and being.
I think Glissa just had "racial memories," not necessarily her own. Perhaps the memory was imprinted on the soul.
Huh...well, I guess that is sort of reincarnation. But, I think reincarnation has to do with karma. I think we can best classify these events as a recycling of souls. Whenever returned to the soul trap, there is no personality, just the soul--a life-force, a clean slate to start a new personality.
We must make the assumption that a being needs a soul to live.
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
From what we have been given, I would say that the number of births on Mirrodin are limited. I would imagine Memnarch could control population sizes with his machines anyway--if there were too many elves, he'd send minions to kill some off (the levelers were a special occasion).
We must remember that Mirrodin is an artificial world. They are doomed to eventually collapse, their ley (mana) lines are usually unbalanced, and no latent planeswalkers can be birthed on such a world (meaning no sparks are produced). Perhaps souls only occur on real worlds as well. I really am not sure, but I would suggest that there needed to be a soul for each living thing.
As for animals and ants . . . well, they aren't native to Mirrodin, so they needed to be brought in (as Karn did with the blinkmoths--which inspired Memnarch's move toward variability). However, this brings up the debate of what/who has a soul, and what a soul does.
I have not completely read the Kamigawa cycle (only books one and two), and have not read the Ravnica cycle, but there are heavy references to spirits on both worlds, yes? (I know Kamigawa at least has the kami.) They may offer some suggestions . . . hmm, I may start a soul thread for us to compile information on the souls of the multiverse to figure out what they seem to be.
As for Mirrodin, I would guess that non-sentient beings do not require souls, so animals could reproduce as necessary, not needing soul traps, but the traps would have been necessary to capture them and bring them to Mirrodin, but no soul would be connected to the trap. (sorry for the run-on)
So, my own (personal) conclusions:
Sentient beings of Mirrodin (the major races: vedalken, leonin, elves, human tribes, etc.) need souls, and if there is no soul in a soul trap for that race, stillbirths would occur.
Non-sentient beings of Mirrodin (voraks, ants, etc.) do not needs souls, and so do not need souls in the soul traps, but the traps were still used to originally used to retrieve them.
I do find it an interesting concept if Memnarch planned to keep the races in a population check through his minions and powers, but there is no evidence for this that I know of, so ignore it as musings.
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
Damn! Glissa! Now I remember why I got so confused by the end of Fifth Dawn! However, we could argue that since her soul was from a natural world and it was reused, she gained it from that--which connects the soul not with an organ like Yawgmoth sought, or in the mind, but in a being's very soul. This is another discussion if we could table it for a moment or a few days until I get the CenCon theory discussion back up . . .
MORT: If we can hop this discussion to the new thread, that'd be awesome! I think there will be some cross-over, but I think it may be too crowded if we talk about Mirrodin and it's inhabitants and technology AND the nature of souls of the multiverse, it will be too confusing.
Cory and Will: Any insight (whether official, or your own conclusions) on whether the number of souls collected by the traps limit population sizes. And, if so, are non-sentient animals bound by the same limitations? (and, gentlemen, if you feel the urge to visit this thread and the soul thread, that'd be awesome!)
I think this discussion is very difficult because we must ignore our personal theological beliefs and realize this is a fictitious multiverse.
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
So my question is: How big (...small) is Mirrodin?
If I remember correctly, the outer sphere of Mirrodin had a circumference of 1400 kilometers, so if my high school algebra isn't too rusty, gives us a diameter of around 450 kilometers.
For comparison, the diameter of the moon is 3476 kilometers
The diameter of the earth is 12,756 kilometers.
The circumference of 1400 kilometers (to travel all the way around Mirrodin) is about the same as the distance from Seattle to Minneapolis.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
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We are not so much concerned about where the inhabitants of Mirrodin came from (okay, well, we are, but that would be another thread, without many clues to find an answer), but how they were brought to--or arrived on--Mirrodin.
Did Memnarch travel to other worlds to find them--did he planeswalk or use a portal? Did he used magic--or magic powered by technology--to pull beings from other worlds? Did the soul traps bring beings to Mirrodin--or do they just keep the souls from leaving Mirrodin?
Below is the debate thus far, from the "Ask the Author(s)" thread:
Sleeping Villian
MORT
Zazdor
Sleeping Villian
Zazdor
Before Cory or anyone else offers insights or suggestions, here is an excerpt from The Breaking Fifth Dawn article by Rei Nakazawa (May 3rd, 2004):
So, Memnarch may not have planeswalking abilities according to this article. But the article also suggested that something else had to do with the inhabitants's origins. I gather for this to mean the soul traps--but how did they work?
I do not have my novels with me to reference. Can anyone post excerpts from the prologue of Moons of Mirrodin (the timeline of events that changed Argentum to Mirrodin--anything that mentions the arrival of life to the plane) and the workings of the soul traps from Fifth Dawn?
Let's get to work!
The Prologue from Moons of Mirrodin does not suggest that Karn returned.
Here are some excerpts in regards in Memnarch bringing life to Mirrodin:
Moons of Mirrodin, page 5:
Would it be so dangerous to bring some of that world here? Would not the mathematical perfection of Karn’s new world be enhanced by the introduction of the best elements of his old world? Memnarch couldn’t help thinking that this stale and monochrome world needed a splash of color, a small infusion of life, just a little uncertainty to take the hard edge off its fractal facade.
“There are so many other worlds that Karn’s probes explored,” said Memnarch as he reached the doors to the palace. “Why stop at emulating their features? I have the entire multiverse at my disposal. All of Karn’s research and data is stored within these walls. He brought the star-creatures here from somewhere. Perhaps I can learn how to send probes out and bring other creatures here as well. I can re-make this world into a living, breathing, vibrant world.”
It appears that somehow Memnarch created probes—or used ones Karn had previously made. He must have used . . . magic? Or the probes had the capabilities to be sent between worlds. Perhaps there was an artifact in Galdroon (the palace) that created and sent probes? There is no indication Memnarch himself could planeswalk--indeed, it seems he used probes. However, we do not know any link between the probes and how they retrieved creatures, and the workings of the soul traps.
Also, he did not begin bringing creatures to Mirrodin until after the “black smudge” infiltrated his matrix. He had the idea to bring creatures to Mirrodin before then, but did not begin the process of bringing beings to his world until after the oil had been taken in. I do not think that it has much to do with how Memnarch got the beings to Mirrodin, but it’s a note to make regardless.
-- Star Compass
Because South (Jersey) is where it's at.
Due to an ovewhelming number of female inquiries (in an MTG forum, one is overwhelming), i am inclined to let people know that i am in a committed relationship.
Mine was just something I cooked up... it probably isn't true...
Moons of Mirrodin, page 5:
The soul traps were simply artifacts that Memnarch created or altered from Karn's probes. They were designed for planar travel and retrieval. Just as Weatherlight could travel the planes without a planeswalker aboard, so could the soul traps.
Once there, they lured beings indiscriminately from the area into the trap, which then transported them back to Mirrodin. Recall one of Glissa's early flares, where she sees herself (but not really herself) as a regular elf (no metal) being pulled toward a distant light. That was a racial memory of the soul trap taking her people.
So, artifice. That was my rationale, at least. I cannot say if that is official canon, because it was left pretty vague within the actual books.
Will
Thanks, Will! That was easy enough! Self-powered planestraveling rat-traps (or vedalken-traps, or elf-traps, whatever). Karn's pretty talented. Again, I am amazed he left such power with Memnarch. Memnarch, on his own--not because of the oil even--decided to use the equipment. Urza left his Legacy around and it caused chaos--granted, it worked, but resulted in much destruction (just look at Vuel, who killed Kondo because of Gerrard and the Legacy). I am still surprised that Karn allowed such power to be left behind while he was gone. Argentum was quite the experiment. It's Karn's version of Tolaria and time travel--good idea that went horribly wrong. You can tell Urza crafted him. But perhaps I am too harsh.
I had completely forgotten about Glissa's flashes.
I have one more question on the soul traps--what was their purpose once they retrieved beings from other worlds? Did they act as a reincarnation device? When one of Mirrodin's inhabitants died, was the soul later reused? Why were they called soul traps? Or, was their only other purpose to return everyone to their respective worlds (or at least a new world) after Memnarch was destroyed? (This answer may be best answered by Cory, but perhaps Will has a response? Or, if anyone can yet provide excerpts from the books, we can work off that!)
(I wish I had my novels handy...)
Although last time i checked, The Weatherlight was a pretty powerful assemblage of artifacts to be able to Walk itself.
Mr.McDermott- When Memnarch sent out the Soul Traps (in your opinion, not officially), would they all have returned to Mirrodin at the same time, or would they come in one by one? So many powerful artifacts going through the BE at once could have disasterous effects on it, wouldn't you agree?
I't's speculation.
I also don't think they would have had any impact on the multiverse other than the local impact of dozens of denizens of a plane getting snatched up. Although I think it might make for an interesting story if there were some consequences to these abductions, but again, I doubt it would be anything that effected more than a single plane.
And, yes, this was a lot of power to leave behind for Memnarch. This is a common theme amongst planewalkers. They have all this power, but little common sense about how to use it (or even safeguard it against misuse). Hopefully Karn has learned his lesson this time. I think part of it was us authors punishing Karn for being so hard on Urza all those years. It's tough to handle all that power. That was the lesson he had to learn once he had it.
Will
That's a pretty cool idea. I would say that it's definitely possible. Although the way I saw them working was that they were on a timer. They stayed open for a specfied time and then closed and returned. But if the Magic Continuity team wanted to pursue a storyline based on this idea (for a return to Mirrodin), I wouldn't see it as a stretch at all.
Will
And if they do return to Mirrodin, I hope the story is less "run run run". Glissa lost so much weight running i didn't know how she could still fight!
That's the problem with having a story set on an entire planet (even one as small as Mirrodin). It seems like with the current story, they've learned their lesson, setting it all within a city. Yeah, I would definitely lobby for any future story I write to be contained within a smaller area.
Will
So here it is.
Now, Will said the traps were sent out, but Cory mentiond them being stable. Here's my synthesis:
- Karn created the soul traps, or at least left the information to create them.
- Memnarch sent the soul traps out (and built them with Karn's knowledge if Karn hadn't left any).
- The soul traps arrived on the worlds, flashed open, abducted inhabitants(as seen in Glissa's flashes from Moons), and returned to Mirrodin
- Once the soul trap was used, the soul of the beings(s) captured by it were tied to the soul trap, keeping Mirrodin a "closed-soul" plane, where the souls would return to the soul trap, and would be re-used whenever a new being was conceived.
- The souls could have been released without the soul traps leaving Mirrodin after Memnarch's demise, but I think it would have been more efficient if they were sent back to their original worlds, released, and then the traps returned empty to Mirrodin (or were destroyed).
Thoughts?
The trap would contain the soul of the being, but not the body the soul inhabits. Whenever someone dies, the body would return to the world and decompose, while the soul returns to the trap and awaits rebirth.
A very, very nice concept Zazdor. If that had been worked into the writing, itd have been muccch more intriguing. But as Mr.McDermott said, spreading the world out as he did, he didn't have the benefit of a closed, compact area like Ravnica, or even CHK for that matter if you've ever seen a map.
HOWEVER, once returned to Mirrodin, the soul traps STAYED on Mirrodin. Whenever a Mirrodin inhabitant died, its body died as usual, and the soul returned to the trap. When a new inhabitant was conceived (or whenever a soul would be instilled--there is no need for an Earth-based religious debate), the soul would be pulled from the trap to the being (on its own accord I would asume).
It's not quiet reincarnation, as the past lives would have no effect on the current life. There would be no karma (bad in first life, so punished in second life, or bumped to a lower caste). The "racial memories" would remain (in flares, or at least for some of the elves), but the new-born Mirrodin inhabitant would be a new personality and being.
I think Glissa just had "racial memories," not necessarily her own. Perhaps the memory was imprinted on the soul.
Huh...well, I guess that is sort of reincarnation. But, I think reincarnation has to do with karma. I think we can best classify these events as a recycling of souls. Whenever returned to the soul trap, there is no personality, just the soul--a life-force, a clean slate to start a new personality.
We must make the assumption that a being needs a soul to live.
We must remember that Mirrodin is an artificial world. They are doomed to eventually collapse, their ley (mana) lines are usually unbalanced, and no latent planeswalkers can be birthed on such a world (meaning no sparks are produced). Perhaps souls only occur on real worlds as well. I really am not sure, but I would suggest that there needed to be a soul for each living thing.
As for animals and ants . . . well, they aren't native to Mirrodin, so they needed to be brought in (as Karn did with the blinkmoths--which inspired Memnarch's move toward variability). However, this brings up the debate of what/who has a soul, and what a soul does.
I have not completely read the Kamigawa cycle (only books one and two), and have not read the Ravnica cycle, but there are heavy references to spirits on both worlds, yes? (I know Kamigawa at least has the kami.) They may offer some suggestions . . . hmm, I may start a soul thread for us to compile information on the souls of the multiverse to figure out what they seem to be.
As for Mirrodin, I would guess that non-sentient beings do not require souls, so animals could reproduce as necessary, not needing soul traps, but the traps would have been necessary to capture them and bring them to Mirrodin, but no soul would be connected to the trap. (sorry for the run-on)
So, my own (personal) conclusions:
MORT: If we can hop this discussion to the new thread, that'd be awesome! I think there will be some cross-over, but I think it may be too crowded if we talk about Mirrodin and it's inhabitants and technology AND the nature of souls of the multiverse, it will be too confusing.
Cory and Will: Any insight (whether official, or your own conclusions) on whether the number of souls collected by the traps limit population sizes. And, if so, are non-sentient animals bound by the same limitations? (and, gentlemen, if you feel the urge to visit this thread and the soul thread, that'd be awesome!)
I think this discussion is very difficult because we must ignore our personal theological beliefs and realize this is a fictitious multiverse.
If I remember correctly, the outer sphere of Mirrodin had a circumference of 1400 kilometers, so if my high school algebra isn't too rusty, gives us a diameter of around 450 kilometers.
For comparison, the diameter of the moon is 3476 kilometers
The diameter of the earth is 12,756 kilometers.
The circumference of 1400 kilometers (to travel all the way around Mirrodin) is about the same as the distance from Seattle to Minneapolis.
Will
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.