I'm going to spoilerfy this in case people don't want to know any of the spoilers from Time Spiral, because my question concerns one of the major ones.
Looking at the new cards that were shown in Scrye, I'm sure everyone noticed the Scion of the Ur-Dragon. When the full page was still on the thread, I noticed that the writer mentioned dumping Nicol Bolas. I immediatly thought, "Hey, do they know Bolas is back in the story, or is it just coincidence?" But then, a little later, something else popped into my mind: dumping Nicol Bolas would make the avatar Nicol Bolas. Was this a hint that Nicol Bolas is the Ur-Dragon? He was a powerful planeswalker, wasn't he? Or is it just coincidence that Nicol Bolas comes back in the set that has the avatar of the Ur-Dragon?
I realize that it's a shakey theory, but I was curious what you guys think of it. As far as I know (which is, admittedly, very little) it was never explained who the Ur-Dragon was.
I think the theory has some merit. Let's review history (and if I make any mistakes as I remember the information, someone correct me):
- The Elder Dragons (Nicol Bolas, his brother Chromium Rhuell, their sister Palladia Mors, and cousin Vaevictus Asmodi, and Arcades Sabboth, his relation unknown) inhabited Dominaria. The Great Dragon War broke out, and the losers became wurms, while the victors--including the Elder Dragons--remained true Dragons.
--I would speculate that it was at this time when Nicol Bolas ascended.
- At the conclusion of the war, the Primevals rose to power.
--Here, it is my speculation that Bolas left Dominaria, and the other Elders each prowled the globe
- The Primevals were trapped by the Numen.
- The Numen were eventually destroyed.
Eventually, Palladia-Mors was captured beneath a mound on Aerona, Chromium Rhuell found a lover in the lesser Elder Piru, and Vaevictus Asmodi was turned into a dragon whelp by the planeswalker Faralyn.
Millennia down the line, the Primevals were reborn, but trapped again. Then, the Numen were reborn, and once again destroyed.
Now, if we look at the Great Dragon War, we can call that the birth of true dragons and lesser dragons (wurms, etc.). If this is the case, and if Nicol Bolas played an active role in the War, then perhaps he is considered the Ur-Dragon.
Or, perhaps Bolas was a planeswalker before the Dragon War, and his arrival on Dominaria began the Dominarian line of dragons.
HOWEVER, if this were to be an avatar of Nicol Bolas, then that means the Ur-Dragon is another being.
So, if it is Nicol Bolas, the Ur-Dragon was another powerful dragon. If it is not Nicol Bolas, this may be one of his descendants. Whether that means just a survivor of the Dragon War or just another true dragon, I'm not sure.
So the Elder Dragons aren't the Primevals, right? I was thinking about them and the Numen, and then the Numen reborn and Karona, and then Karona's causing the time rifts and Nicol Bolas coming back and whether there was some connection. But that gets killed by the Primevals not being the Elder Dragons. Some sort of cycle, in a sense.
So, basically, if Nicol Bolas was the Ur-Dragon, the avatar card would use Bolas' name instead of Ur-Dragon?
Scion means "offspring," so if the card is Bolas--and Bolas was the Ur-Dragon--it wouldn't have the word "scion" in its title. It'd be "Ur-Dragon."
If Bolas is a descent/offspring/scion of the Ur-Dragon, then the card could be him. However, my guess is that the card is NOT Nicol Bolas. It doesn't look like his other card, and the five colors is unlike his other three-color version.
Also, I am unsure how WotC is approaching the Elder Dragons and Primevals. My guess is that they have dropped the existance of the Dragon War as far as addressing it in revisionist history. Instead, they will probably continue to focus on the Primevals. So, this guy may be linked more closely with the Primevals than the Elders.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
Whoops, was working off the creature type and not the name.
And no, what I meant was that Bolas is the Ur-Dragon, and the card is one of his avatars. One problem does come from the colors. Bolas never spread out to the other colors when he ascended, did he?
I wish they'd flesh out those areas of Dominarian history. I love the novels dealing with ancient history.
When you used the word "avatar," I thought you meant it was a representation of Nicol Bolas, just as the Coldsnap card creates a likeness of Marit Lage.
So yes, the card may be a descendant/scion of Bolas, the Ur-Dragon. IF, that is, Bolas is the Ur-Dragon, heh.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
So the Elder Dragons aren't the Primevals, right? I was thinking about them and the Numen, and then the Numen reborn and Karona, and then Karona's causing the time rifts and Nicol Bolas coming back and whether there was some connection. But that gets killed by the Primevals not being the Elder Dragons.
The Primevals are Darigaaz, Rith, Treva, Dromar and Crosis, whereas the Elder Dragons are Chromium Rhuell, Arcades Sabboth, Palladia-Mors, Vaevictis Asmadi and Nicol Bolas.
The theory says that the Primevals are direct descendants of Elders. I believe the Ur-Dragon being a mythical figure, not any of the Elders.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
It is Scion of Ur-Dragon, it is Avatar and flavor texts says that he is blood of Ur-Dragon.
I think that he is nothing more than Avatar of Ur-dragon whatever was he killed or not.
He can just morph from one form of dragon into another. He is embodiment of dragonkind.
I would like to see him somehow involved in the story, but I think it is not Bolas.
i didnt follow the Mirrodin cycle but the UR-Golems where created by karn, could somebody please tell me what the UR means? is it a title? or a class? i find it interesting to find a UR-Dargon specially since we know karn will be around in planar chaos...(Urza's mind making karn experiment with other life forms not only artifacts maybe???)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
I beleive the Ur-Dragon is the god of dragons, sort of like an MTG version of Tiamat or Bahamut of DnD fame.
Well, we know what the Ur-Dragon is supposed to be, based on the Attendants cycle. What I was speculating about whether there's also a who, besides just the name Ur-Dragon.
herder: Ur is used for eldest? O.o See, another odd coincidence. But then, that's (most likely) what we've got here, a lot of coincidences that can be viewed as having meaning. Maybe I'll send in the question to Ask Wizards. XP
maybe bolas went to ravnica (one of the visitors) and became niv-mizzet, then fled back to dominaria once the nephilim started rampaging and razing the city...just a thought...
I'm going to spoilerfy this in case people don't want to know any of the spoilers from Time Spiral, because my question concerns one of the major ones.
Looking at the new cards that were shown in Scrye, I'm sure everyone noticed the Scion of the Ur-Dragon. When the full page was still on the thread, I noticed that the writer mentioned dumping Nicol Bolas. I immediatly thought, "Hey, do they know Bolas is back in the story, or is it just coincidence?" But then, a little later, something else popped into my mind: dumping Nicol Bolas would make the avatar Nicol Bolas. Was this a hint that Nicol Bolas is the Ur-Dragon? He was a powerful planeswalker, wasn't he? Or is it just coincidence that Nicol Bolas comes back in the set that has the avatar of the Ur-Dragon?
I realize that it's a shakey theory, but I was curious what you guys think of it. As far as I know (which is, admittedly, very little) it was never explained who the Ur-Dragon was.
My take on the on the Scion of the Ur-Dragon card and the mention of Nicol Bolas (one of the most famous magic dragons) was that a player would have both in the deck, and made no connection to the real Nicol Bolas or that it would be in the book. Maybe he's reprinted, or re-imaged. I'm thinking with the whole Time Spiraling theme, that the UR-Dragon avatar just has potenial access to the template of each dragon that ever existed, thru those time portals.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Avvy from Le Gambit Extendo-Sliver Master of Death and Taxes
You really can't get away.
I've tried.
[And I still do
I believe the answer Brady Dommermuth was a bit simplified and did not reflect 100% the truth.
Ur-Dragon is indeed referred to as the "perfect dragon", but the usage of the prefix "ur-" inevitably links to the fact, that this perfect image of a dragon was the first - the perfect - dragon.
And of course as I said I don't think it is a reference to a single dragon that existed in the past, but to the idea of an ancient (perfect) dragon from whom all other dragons descend.
Or, of course, you can just say that all of this is herder's musings
For what it is worth this old timer has imagined basically the same thing all these years. I always imagined a good bit of MtG mythos used Platonic realism, a perfect version of something exists as an idea and all real versions of it are just approximations on that ideal. So the Ur-Dragon is the perfect specimen of dragon kind. Obviously perfection does not exist in nature but historically there may have been figures that came close to it. The Primeval each represents perfection in a certain aspect.
A lot of the old novels toyed with the idea of Platonic realism when summoning things. Some wizards/planeswalkers would broker deals with individual creatures others would basically use mana to literally force a thing into being based off of the perfect version of said creature. Part of the Legends being summoned across time was attributed to this idea. The concept that legends were unique on the battlefield also played with the idea that you managed to summon the unique perfect version of it so no one else could. So the answer can be yes and no. This creature may have never existed but magic being what it is, someone could still summon it.
Again a lot of old mythos and theories from an old storyline guy.
I realize that it's a shakey theory, but I was curious what you guys think of it. As far as I know (which is, admittedly, very little) it was never explained who the Ur-Dragon was.
- The Elder Dragons (Nicol Bolas, his brother Chromium Rhuell, their sister Palladia Mors, and cousin Vaevictus Asmodi, and Arcades Sabboth, his relation unknown) inhabited Dominaria. The Great Dragon War broke out, and the losers became wurms, while the victors--including the Elder Dragons--remained true Dragons.
--I would speculate that it was at this time when Nicol Bolas ascended.
- At the conclusion of the war, the Primevals rose to power.
--Here, it is my speculation that Bolas left Dominaria, and the other Elders each prowled the globe
- The Primevals were trapped by the Numen.
- The Numen were eventually destroyed.
Eventually, Palladia-Mors was captured beneath a mound on Aerona, Chromium Rhuell found a lover in the lesser Elder Piru, and Vaevictus Asmodi was turned into a dragon whelp by the planeswalker Faralyn.
Millennia down the line, the Primevals were reborn, but trapped again. Then, the Numen were reborn, and once again destroyed.
Now, if we look at the Great Dragon War, we can call that the birth of true dragons and lesser dragons (wurms, etc.). If this is the case, and if Nicol Bolas played an active role in the War, then perhaps he is considered the Ur-Dragon.
Or, perhaps Bolas was a planeswalker before the Dragon War, and his arrival on Dominaria began the Dominarian line of dragons.
HOWEVER, if this were to be an avatar of Nicol Bolas, then that means the Ur-Dragon is another being.
So, if it is Nicol Bolas, the Ur-Dragon was another powerful dragon. If it is not Nicol Bolas, this may be one of his descendants. Whether that means just a survivor of the Dragon War or just another true dragon, I'm not sure.
So, basically, if Nicol Bolas was the Ur-Dragon, the avatar card would use Bolas' name instead of Ur-Dragon?
If Bolas is a descent/offspring/scion of the Ur-Dragon, then the card could be him. However, my guess is that the card is NOT Nicol Bolas. It doesn't look like his other card, and the five colors is unlike his other three-color version.
Also, I am unsure how WotC is approaching the Elder Dragons and Primevals. My guess is that they have dropped the existance of the Dragon War as far as addressing it in revisionist history. Instead, they will probably continue to focus on the Primevals. So, this guy may be linked more closely with the Primevals than the Elders.
And no, what I meant was that Bolas is the Ur-Dragon, and the card is one of his avatars. One problem does come from the colors. Bolas never spread out to the other colors when he ascended, did he?
I wish they'd flesh out those areas of Dominarian history. I love the novels dealing with ancient history.
So yes, the card may be a descendant/scion of Bolas, the Ur-Dragon. IF, that is, Bolas is the Ur-Dragon, heh.
The Primevals are Darigaaz, Rith, Treva, Dromar and Crosis, whereas the Elder Dragons are Chromium Rhuell, Arcades Sabboth, Palladia-Mors, Vaevictis Asmadi and Nicol Bolas.
The theory says that the Primevals are direct descendants of Elders. I believe the Ur-Dragon being a mythical figure, not any of the Elders.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
i didnt follow the Mirrodin cycle but the UR-Golems where created by karn, could somebody please tell me what the UR means? is it a title? or a class? i find it interesting to find a UR-Dargon specially since we know karn will be around in planar chaos...(Urza's mind making karn experiment with other life forms not only artifacts maybe???)
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Well, we know what the Ur-Dragon is supposed to be, based on the Attendants cycle. What I was speculating about whether there's also a who, besides just the name Ur-Dragon.
herder: Ur is used for eldest? O.o See, another odd coincidence. But then, that's (most likely) what we've got here, a lot of coincidences that can be viewed as having meaning. Maybe I'll send in the question to Ask Wizards. XP
I'll definitely have to pester them. Unless it's already been answered, but still, people will be asking, what with the Scion and all.
My take on the on the Scion of the Ur-Dragon card and the mention of Nicol Bolas (one of the most famous magic dragons) was that a player would have both in the deck, and made no connection to the real Nicol Bolas or that it would be in the book. Maybe he's reprinted, or re-imaged. I'm thinking with the whole Time Spiraling theme, that the UR-Dragon avatar just has potenial access to the template of each dragon that ever existed, thru those time portals.
Avvy from Le Gambit
Extendo-Sliver
Master of Death and Taxes
You really can't get away.
I've tried.
For what it is worth this old timer has imagined basically the same thing all these years. I always imagined a good bit of MtG mythos used Platonic realism, a perfect version of something exists as an idea and all real versions of it are just approximations on that ideal. So the Ur-Dragon is the perfect specimen of dragon kind. Obviously perfection does not exist in nature but historically there may have been figures that came close to it. The Primeval each represents perfection in a certain aspect.
A lot of the old novels toyed with the idea of Platonic realism when summoning things. Some wizards/planeswalkers would broker deals with individual creatures others would basically use mana to literally force a thing into being based off of the perfect version of said creature. Part of the Legends being summoned across time was attributed to this idea. The concept that legends were unique on the battlefield also played with the idea that you managed to summon the unique perfect version of it so no one else could. So the answer can be yes and no. This creature may have never existed but magic being what it is, someone could still summon it.
Again a lot of old mythos and theories from an old storyline guy.
Forever