During a match I say the phrase "attempt to move to combat", my opponent then casts a spell to tap down one of my creatures. I let it resolve. What phase are we in now? I was told last night that after I say "attempt to move to combat", I have no chance to do anything other than declare attackers, despite not specifically passing priory to enter the combat phase. The judge told me that the only phrase that means I don't want to enter combat yet is "attempting to exit main phase" and that anything else passes priority until i can declare attackers. Despite both players not passing priority on an empty stack to enter the comb at phase.
Is this correct? I have used "attempt to move to combat" in multiple competitive REL events and have never had any problems like this until last night.
The conventional meaning of "move to combat" when used as a shortcut in tournament settings is that the active player is proposing that each player passes priority until the game moves to the Beginning of Combat step, and then the active player passes priority so that the non-active player has it. The non-active player, should they have something to do, is assumed to be acting during the Beginning of Combat step unless they say otherwise.
If your opponent does something like tap a creature, you do get priority again before declaring attackers, but it's past your main phase. So you can, for example, animate a manland, but not cast a creature with haste.
If you want to pass priority only for the main phase you have to say that's what you're doing, though your opponent can choose to pass priority too and then your main phase will be over.
Sort of, but what are you trying to do? If your intention is just to bait responses while still in your main phase, keep in mind that when you pass priority, your opponent has the option to do likewise and end your main phase. You will both get priority again before attackers so there is little incentive for your opponent to play into this.
So saying "attempting to exit main phase" instead of "attempt to move to combat" fixes the issue, correct?
You should have a real reason to use that phrase. If you don't and your opponent calls a judge, the judge may think that you were trying to trick your opponent to doing something during your main phase 1, even though he meant to do it just before you declare attackers.
Might of old Krosa gives plus 4 during my main phase, but not any other time. Without cheating or mis-communicating, I would like to give my opponent the opportunity to misplay.
So saying "attempting to exit main phase" instead of "attempt to move to combat" fixes the issue, correct?
You should have a real reason to use that phrase. If you don't and your opponent calls a judge, the judge may think that you were trying to trick your opponent to doing something during your main phase 1, even though he meant to do it just before you declare attackers.
Might of old Krosa gives plus 4 during my main phase, but not any other time. Without cheating or mis-communicating, I would like to give my opponent the opportunity to misplay.
If you are actually saying "I am leaving my main phase", and your opponent says "before that, I will do this", sure, you will still be in your main phase afterwards. But it needs to be very, very clear like that. If your opponent says something like "alright, before you declare attackers", I will rule that he passed priority and caused the shift to the beginning of combat step.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Unless you have a real good reason to be attempting to do something during beginning of combat as opposed to main phase 1 or after declaring attackers, you are likely going to be considered as attempting to apply the tournament shortcut if you use phrases like "I would like to pass priority in main phase 1" (I had this conversation with Ricardo, the L5 from Italy). Chances are the judges will believe you are attempting to trick your opponent into acting at a time they were not intending, and generally the correct thing to do is ask that player when they were looking to perform their action.
So what exactly am I supposed to say? Would just "I pass priority" be sufficient?
If you say that and your opponent casts an instant or activates an ability, that's assumed to be in the Beginning of combat step. You didn't make it clear that you were deviating from the standard shortcut.
The standard shortcut is there because, outside of specific cards being present (what comes to mind are those triggering at the beginning of combat such as Odric, Lunarch Marshal), it is very rare that it makes sense for the opponent to do something before you end your main phase instead of during the beginning of combat step. It's so obviously better for them to act in the later step that's it's assumed that's what they're doing. This shortcut saves more time and prevents more ambiguity than if it weren't there, it's been tried and tested for years. If your opponent wants to deviate from the shortcut, possibly because of a card like Odric, they have to specify.
The way I see it, the only way you can trick your opponent the way you suggest is, as I said above, if you are making it clear enough (clear enough for a judge who's listening) that you are asking them, precisely, only whether your main phase can end, and they clearly disagree with that and do something then. No, it's not that likely to work. And I strongly advise against that kind of fishing.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Saying "I pass priority" is not a shortcut. I am not proposing a shortcut or any kind, I am simply passing my 1 single priority that I legally have at that moment. I can not make it any more clear than that. Why it is assumed that by passing my one single priority, i am passing multiple priorities? What exact phrase am i supposed to say to do this legally? Because everything i had suggested you tell me that it is a shortcut to combat, which i am specifically not doing.
The thing is, passing priority once on an empty stack during your main phase is enough for the game to go to combat, because your opponent has the power to make it so by passing priority too, and you can't stop them once you've passed. The automatic shortcut, which happens no matter if you propose it or not, makes it so that they do not have to state specifically that they are doing this, it's assumed that they are: if they do something, it's assumed that they made the game move to the beginning of combat step and that they are trying to do it in that step unless they specify otherwise. You do technically get priority first as the active player in that step, and you can say "I will be using my priority in Beginning of combat step" to do something before they do, but you have to state it clearly and in advance ("I go to combat, but I'll be doing something in the beginning of combat step"), because otherwise that priority point is automatically skipped as part of the shortcut. (That's because it's the most useless priority point for the active player in the whole turn, there is almost never any reason to do something then; in Magic Online terms, it's the most useless stop, there's little to no strategic reason to have it enabled). So to state it clearly, this standard automatic shortcut consists in skipping two priority points : their priority before you end your main phase, and your first priority in the beginning of combat step.
This means that, in order to do what you're suggesting, you need to ask your opponent whether they're deviating from the standard. So you can say something like "I pass priority during my main phase, do you pass too?", and if they respond "No, I'll cast something", then you're in your main phase still. BUT if you just say "I pass priority during my main phase" without the question to them added, and they do something without them specifying it's in main phase, we're in the beginning of combat step, because it's assumed they made it so.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
There are lots of priorities that you and your opponent both pass without either of you saying anything. Upkeep, and draw step priorities, for instance, both go by without either player saying anything most of the time. It is the same for your and your opponent's priority passes at the end of main phase one. Speaking up to pass priority without being explicit that's it's the main phase pass assumes that that you and your opponent have already both passed main once silently and you are asking about beginning of combat. That's the rules.
Consider this: You opponent passes the turn, you untap, draw your card, asses the battlefield, and cast Might of old Krosa. You think's it's okay for your opponent to call a judge and try to claim you cast the spell during your draw step? Playing the game this way would be miserable. You and your opponent both needing to say "pass priority" after every spell before it can resolve?
I'm new. So this may be too basic of a thought process for this thread. I always understood that ONLY when empty priority is passed twice consecutively that a phase shifts.
In this line of thought, I would say you can say whatever you want. Your opponent didn't LET it become the combat phase. IF your opponent would have done NOTHING and let priority pass back to you, the ruling above would have been correct.
@VegaTDM What you're trying to do is trip your opponent up on minutiae of extraordinarily precise phrasing.
Consider the case of:
Opponent: "I cast Esper Charm."
Me: "Targeting?"
Opponent: "Myself, of course."
Me: "Cool -- discard two cards."
Opponent: "WAaahhhhhhh?"
I've utilized precise wording to trip my opponent up and force the presumption that he's using either the "discard" or "destroy enchantment" mode of Esper Charm -- the draw isn't targeted. He's technically forced to discard two cards -- when he calls a judge and intent is discovered, however, many judges may opt to rule on intent. Especially when you explain how the determination was made. My local judge, for example, doesn't let tricky wording beat intent -- it would create a ridiculous environment. Some judges will let it slide, too, and force you to discard two cards!
However, the rules of the game are very precise and even "Out of Order Sequencing" will often stop you from doing your intended action. . Your wording of "I pass priority during my main phase, do you pass too?" is very clear. If I respond with "Before attacks, Path to Exile your dude." OoOS here would tend to mean "I accept your premise of leaving the mainphase and in the Before Combat step, I cast Path to Exile targeting your creature" and not "No, I path your dude before leaving the main phase."
There is not a good way to do what you're suggesting other than to, as Zauzich suggested, make playing the game a miserable back and forth of priority passing with combat steps and game phases manually advancing one at a time.
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So what exactly am I supposed to say? Would just "I pass priority" be sufficient?
You are not "supposed" to say anything. The game is called Magic: The Gathering, not Magic: The Dictionary. There is no clever phrase that will let you trick your opponent into thinking that you are invoking the shortcut while you are not, or to trick them into thinking the game is in Beginning of Combat when it is not. Period. We want players to communicate in order to [b}clear up[/b] what's happening, [b]not to obfuscate[/b]. Trying to use clever wording to confuse your opponent about where the game really is is not going to achieve the results you want.
It doesn't matter if you say "Combat?", "Go to Beginningof Combat?", "Pass priority in my main phase?", or whatever else you can think of. If you do not want to invoke the shortcut, you have to very explicit about it. Want to do something in your main phase? Just do it, then move to combat. Want to do something in your Beginning of Combat that really needs to happen after the main phase? Say "Go to combat, then do XYZ in Beginning of Combat".
There is no way of tricking your opponent into accidentally acting in your main phase without realizing it.
In the declare blockers step and the defending player chooses not to block and ask if priority is passed. It seems like a crappy way to force the active player into the assign combat damage step even if they don't want to be there.
In the declare blockers step and the defending player chooses not to block and ask if priority is passed. It seems like a crappy way to force the active player into the assign combat damage step even if they don't want to be there.
After the blockers declaration is done, the active player has the choice of doing something or passing priority. If they pass priority, that means they are willing to go to the combat damage step if the opponent also does nothing. But if the opponent takes any action, the active player will get priority back to potentially act before combat damage.
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
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Is this correct? I have used "attempt to move to combat" in multiple competitive REL events and have never had any problems like this until last night.
If your opponent does something like tap a creature, you do get priority again before declaring attackers, but it's past your main phase. So you can, for example, animate a manland, but not cast a creature with haste.
If you want to pass priority only for the main phase you have to say that's what you're doing, though your opponent can choose to pass priority too and then your main phase will be over.
Might of old Krosa gives plus 4 during my main phase, but not any other time. Without cheating or mis-communicating, I would like to give my opponent the opportunity to misplay.
Magic is a game of cards, not words.
The standard shortcut is there because, outside of specific cards being present (what comes to mind are those triggering at the beginning of combat such as Odric, Lunarch Marshal), it is very rare that it makes sense for the opponent to do something before you end your main phase instead of during the beginning of combat step. It's so obviously better for them to act in the later step that's it's assumed that's what they're doing. This shortcut saves more time and prevents more ambiguity than if it weren't there, it's been tried and tested for years. If your opponent wants to deviate from the shortcut, possibly because of a card like Odric, they have to specify.
The way I see it, the only way you can trick your opponent the way you suggest is, as I said above, if you are making it clear enough (clear enough for a judge who's listening) that you are asking them, precisely, only whether your main phase can end, and they clearly disagree with that and do something then. No, it's not that likely to work. And I strongly advise against that kind of fishing.
This means that, in order to do what you're suggesting, you need to ask your opponent whether they're deviating from the standard. So you can say something like "I pass priority during my main phase, do you pass too?", and if they respond "No, I'll cast something", then you're in your main phase still. BUT if you just say "I pass priority during my main phase" without the question to them added, and they do something without them specifying it's in main phase, we're in the beginning of combat step, because it's assumed they made it so.
Consider this: You opponent passes the turn, you untap, draw your card, asses the battlefield, and cast Might of old Krosa. You think's it's okay for your opponent to call a judge and try to claim you cast the spell during your draw step? Playing the game this way would be miserable. You and your opponent both needing to say "pass priority" after every spell before it can resolve?
In this line of thought, I would say you can say whatever you want. Your opponent didn't LET it become the combat phase. IF your opponent would have done NOTHING and let priority pass back to you, the ruling above would have been correct.
Consider the case of:
Opponent: "I cast Esper Charm."
Me: "Targeting?"
Opponent: "Myself, of course."
Me: "Cool -- discard two cards."
Opponent: "WAaahhhhhhh?"
I've utilized precise wording to trip my opponent up and force the presumption that he's using either the "discard" or "destroy enchantment" mode of Esper Charm -- the draw isn't targeted. He's technically forced to discard two cards -- when he calls a judge and intent is discovered, however, many judges may opt to rule on intent. Especially when you explain how the determination was made. My local judge, for example, doesn't let tricky wording beat intent -- it would create a ridiculous environment. Some judges will let it slide, too, and force you to discard two cards!
However, the rules of the game are very precise and even "Out of Order Sequencing" will often stop you from doing your intended action. . Your wording of "I pass priority during my main phase, do you pass too?" is very clear. If I respond with "Before attacks, Path to Exile your dude." OoOS here would tend to mean "I accept your premise of leaving the mainphase and in the Before Combat step, I cast Path to Exile targeting your creature" and not "No, I path your dude before leaving the main phase."
There is not a good way to do what you're suggesting other than to, as Zauzich suggested, make playing the game a miserable back and forth of priority passing with combat steps and game phases manually advancing one at a time.
WUBRG: Karona - Chaos towards Divine Intervention ** WUBRG: Karona - God Tribal ** WB: Teysa - Angels, Wrath, and Return from GY ** UB: Szadek - Control and Mill ** RWU: Zedruu - Everyone Draws Cards ** BUG: Damia - Gorgon Voltron Ramp ** URG: Animar - ETB effects and Beatdown ** WUB: Sharuum - Lots of Artifacts UG: Edric - Tribal Rogues ** W: Odric - Tribal Soldiers ** B: Shirei - Shadowborn Apostle Deck ** RB: Tymaret - Kill all the things!
You are not "supposed" to say anything. The game is called Magic: The Gathering, not Magic: The Dictionary. There is no clever phrase that will let you trick your opponent into thinking that you are invoking the shortcut while you are not, or to trick them into thinking the game is in Beginning of Combat when it is not. Period. We want players to communicate in order to [b}clear up[/b] what's happening, [b]not to obfuscate[/b]. Trying to use clever wording to confuse your opponent about where the game really is is not going to achieve the results you want.
It doesn't matter if you say "Combat?", "Go to Beginningof Combat?", "Pass priority in my main phase?", or whatever else you can think of. If you do not want to invoke the shortcut, you have to very explicit about it. Want to do something in your main phase? Just do it, then move to combat. Want to do something in your Beginning of Combat that really needs to happen after the main phase? Say "Go to combat, then do XYZ in Beginning of Combat".
There is no way of tricking your opponent into accidentally acting in your main phase without realizing it.