First off, my apologies if this is not in the right forum, I was not real sure where to post it. If wrong, will a mod please move to correct forum.
So, we have a person who we suspect fairly regularly cheats, but we've been unable to catch him. He keeps getting perfect amounts of land in his hand (generally 3), never seems to mulligan. We know he generally runs a 20 mana base. A few of us have seen him, after his matches, split out his land from the rest of his deck, and mana weave it 3 piles, stack land-non-non. We've questioned his shuffling skills before, but he has a pretty good slight of hand. Anyhow. Here is the legal question I have.
I think I remember reading a while back, that pile shuffling an opponents deck is now legal, on the basis of, if their deck is randomized in an appropriate manner, then it still remains randomized after. Now, if we are suspecting him of deck stacking, can I de-weave his deck, 3 piles, then stack them. This would give a block of his deck as strictly land. Before he draws, call a judge over and have the judge inspect the deck? The main reason I ask this is : If we suspect this going on, then we are knowingly DE-randomizing his deck, which I would imagine might fall in a grey area of the rules, however it catches him red handed (because seriously, what are the chances a block of 20 cards in a row are all land, I could figure it out statistically, but honestly, its not *that* important to me*). So the main question becomes, if it is proven he has been deck stacking (or weaving), can we as a player be punished, for doing the aforementioned because we took a deck that we "knew" wasnt random, and forced it to still not be random after cutting.
The reason we hesitate calling a judge pre-cut is given the situation, he can argue that 'Thats just how the cards fell' (which I think is total BS). But doing it after cut forces the situation to be present of his cheating. He has been caught a few times after someones legit shuffled his deck, he will 'accidentally' do something to his deck which forces him to reshuffle and re-present his deck (this happens normally at FNM where most people just take the deck in 1/2 and simple cut, which still leaves him pretty well woven).
In short. We are trying to force a situation where he is caught red handed, no excuses, no doubt, no questions. Just plain 'He cheats, and here is the proof'.
if you ever suspect someone of cheating you can call a judge to investigate. If their deck is in 'perfect' order it will be obvious and he will be caught, if he is continuously doing shady things to shuffle his deck tell the judge or TO and they will handle it. The only thing you can do as a player is call the judge or the TO, if enough people say something they will take it seriously.
If you want to, it is legal to simply pile shuffle your opponent's deck. But if you suspect cheating, the first thing you should do is to call a judge.
I'm not certain if it is against the written rules of the game (although I am pretty sure it is), but it is definitely against the spirit of the game to try and trick this player into getting caught with your own version of stacking his deck.
Like chaikov said, you should shuffle his deck yourself every time he shuffles it. Also, you can call a judge on him whenever you see him weaving his deck before, during, or after your match with him. If everyone in the store suspects him of cheating there is no reason to try and undermine him with further deceit than he is already participating in. Just let him weave his deck and when he presents it to you call a judge to inspect it. If necessary, do this after game 1 and 2 as well.
When I three pile-shuffle my opponents deck (Which I suspect is stacked) and present it to him, did I not break the "you're supposed to randomize your opponent's deck" rule? I know it's not cheating, but a three-pile shuffle is still not a shuffle and should be against the rules for the same reason that just tapping the opponents deck is, right?
This is only a potential problem if the player isn't shuffling his deck before each game starts. Pile "shuffling" isn't shuffling (as explained earlier), and neither is a series of over/under-hand passes (this is really just a type of cut). If the player does a proper series of shuffles then it doesn't matter how the deck was seeded/woven before the shuffling started. If your opponent doesn't shuffle his deck before the game starts, ask him to do it. If he won't, call a judge and let them handle the situation.
So, we have a person who we suspect fairly regularly cheats, but we've been unable to catch him. He keeps getting perfect amounts of land in his hand (generally 3), never seems to mulligan. We know he generally runs a 20 mana base. A few of us have seen him, after his matches, split out his land from the rest of his deck, and mana weave it 3 piles, stack land-non-non. We've questioned his shuffling skills before, but he has a pretty good slight of hand. Anyhow. Here is the legal question I have.
I think I remember reading a while back, that pile shuffling an opponents deck is now legal, on the basis of, if their deck is randomized in an appropriate manner, then it still remains randomized after. Now, if we are suspecting him of deck stacking, can I de-weave his deck, 3 piles, then stack them. This would give a block of his deck as strictly land. Before he draws, call a judge over and have the judge inspect the deck? The main reason I ask this is : If we suspect this going on, then we are knowingly DE-randomizing his deck, which I would imagine might fall in a grey area of the rules, however it catches him red handed (because seriously, what are the chances a block of 20 cards in a row are all land, I could figure it out statistically, but honestly, its not *that* important to me*). So the main question becomes, if it is proven he has been deck stacking (or weaving), can we as a player be punished, for doing the aforementioned because we took a deck that we "knew" wasnt random, and forced it to still not be random after cutting.
The reason we hesitate calling a judge pre-cut is given the situation, he can argue that 'Thats just how the cards fell' (which I think is total BS). But doing it after cut forces the situation to be present of his cheating. He has been caught a few times after someones legit shuffled his deck, he will 'accidentally' do something to his deck which forces him to reshuffle and re-present his deck (this happens normally at FNM where most people just take the deck in 1/2 and simple cut, which still leaves him pretty well woven).
In short. We are trying to force a situation where he is caught red handed, no excuses, no doubt, no questions. Just plain 'He cheats, and here is the proof'.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Like chaikov said, you should shuffle his deck yourself every time he shuffles it. Also, you can call a judge on him whenever you see him weaving his deck before, during, or after your match with him. If everyone in the store suspects him of cheating there is no reason to try and undermine him with further deceit than he is already participating in. Just let him weave his deck and when he presents it to you call a judge to inspect it. If necessary, do this after game 1 and 2 as well.
When I three pile-shuffle my opponents deck (Which I suspect is stacked) and present it to him, did I not break the "you're supposed to randomize your opponent's deck" rule? I know it's not cheating, but a three-pile shuffle is still not a shuffle and should be against the rules for the same reason that just tapping the opponents deck is, right?
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
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