With Mana Echoes in play and something puts multiple creatures in play that each have multiple creature types, how does the math work out for the mana I would get? I know cards like Increasing Devotion that put tokens with only 1 type is just number of tokens squared. 5 tokens, 5 triggers for 5 mana each = 25 mana
Example: Brood Monitor, Blight Herder, Spawnsire of Ulamog, etc.
How does Mana Echoes treat creatures with multiple creature types entering either individually or at the same time?
A)I have just Mana Echoes and no other creatures, then put Brood Monitor in play; how would I get the total mana?
B)I have just Mana Echoes and no other creatures, then put Spawnsire of Ulamog, activate token ability over and over not using these tokens. How much would each iteration/cycle give me?
I realize it ultimately gives me a lot, basically infinite mana. I just want to clarify the details in case I need to explain it again during a game since my LGS comes to me a lot for rules questions like this.
Mana echoes's ability will trigger for each creature enters the field.
If there are multiple creatures enter the field at the same time , Mana echoes's ability will trigger that much time simultaneously.
ie three creatures enter the field at the same time , the ability trigger tripple at the same time.
But The value of X is determines as each ability resolves.
So
A) When Brood monitor enters the field , there are two abilities trigger = Brood monitor'ETB ability + Mana echoes ability.
You put these abilities on the stack in order you want. Let's say you put Mana echoes's ability on the stack first = Brood's ETB ability resolves before = you put three token on the field.
Mana echoes will trigger tripple at the same time (again) , you put them on the stack.
Now , there are 4 mana echoes abilities on the stack
Each of them will add 4 to your mana pool.
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Yes , I was Rules Advisor.
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).
so Mana Echoes isn't as dependent on the number of creature types per creature as I thought. Its the same math as in Increasing Devotion example it seems. I was thinking Brood Monitor entering gives me 1 mana since I only have 1 creature. Then the eldrazi scions enter, giving me mana based on number of eldrazi type I now have (4) + the number of scion types I now have (3). So the fact the scions share another creature type amongst themselves doesn't matter?
For case B), ignoring the initial Mana Echoes trigger from Spawnsire, the first time you activate Spawnsire's first ability you'll have two Eldrazi Spawn tokens entering the battlefield when the ability resolves, and will trigger Mana Echoes twice for (3) mana each. You can do all sorts of shenanigans like respond to the Mana Echoes triggers by activating Spawnsire again, leading to you having another pair of Eldrazi Spawn tokens that'll each give you (5) mana from the Mana Echoes trigger, and subsequently cause the triggers from the first two Eldrazi Spawn tokens to also net you (5) mana.
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These visions of mine... are they still daydreams if the sun is dead? Are they waking nightmares, instead, or is that what they always were?
B) When Spawnsire of Ulamog enters the field , Mana echoes's ability trigger. You put the ability on the stack , if no one response = this ability add 1 to your mana pool (because you control just one Eldrazi creature - Spawnsire itself).
Then you activate Spaensire's second ability (you need 4 to do this action) , if no one response = you put two tokens onto the field. Mana echoes's ability trigger twice at the same time.
You put the two abilities on the stack , if no one response = each of them will add 3 to your mana pool (because now you control three Eldrasi creatures - Spawnsire + two tokens).
And so on.
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Yes , I was Rules Advisor.
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).
If I understand correctly, that's not his question pok_onnet. His inquiring regards the amount of creature types on those cases and what's the interaction with Mana Echoes in such case.
What I believe will happen is this:
A) Mana Echoes specifically mentions "creature type", so, as per rule 302.3. (below; refer to bolded parts), when Brood Monitor and its tokens etb (simultaneously), you'll be getting 1 mana for the Drone subtype, 4x4 mana for the Eldrazi subtype and 3x3 mana for the Scion subtype. Therefore, 26 colorless mana.
B) Spawnsire of Ulamog enters the battlefield and you get 1 mana. You activate the ability and two new Eldrazi Spawns etb. That's 2x3 for the Eldrazi subtype, and 2x2 for the Spawn subtype, which results in 7 brand new colorless mana (which yes, would result in infinite tokens and infinite mana; i.e. subsequent activations would result in 2x5 mana for the Eldrazi subtype and 2x4 for the Spawn subtype, then 2x7 and 2x6, etc.)
I'd, however, wait for someone more knowledgeable to weigh in.
*Creature subtypes are always a single word and are listed after a long dash: “Creature — Human
Soldier,” “Artifact Creature — Golem,” and so on. Creature subtypes are also called creature types.
Creatures may have multiple subtypes. See rule 205.3m for the complete list of creature types. Example: “Creature — Goblin Wizard” means the card is a creature with the subtypes
Goblin and Wizard.
so Mana Echoes isn't as dependent on the number of creature types per creature as I thought. Its the same math as in Increasing Devotion example it seems. I was thinking Brood Monitor entering gives me 1 mana since I only have 1 creature.
The Game will looking for number of creatures you control that share creature type with Brood Monitor to determine the value of X as the ability resolves.
So according to the strategy I have mentioned above , you can let Mana echoes's ability which trigger from Brood monitor resolves last. At that time , Game will see you control 4 Eldrazi creatures - Brood monitor + three tokens.
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Yes , I was Rules Advisor.
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).
If I understand correctly, that's not his question pok_onnet. His inquiring regards the amount of creature types on those cases and what's the interaction with Mana Echoes in such case.
What I believe will happen is this:
A) Mana Echoes specifically mentions "creature type", so, as per rule 302.3.*, when Brood Monitor and its tokens etb (simultaneously), you'll be getting 1 mana for the drone subtype, 4x4 mana for the Eldrazi subtype and 3x3 mana for the Scion subtype. Therefore, 26 colorless mana.
B) Spawsire of Ulamog enters the battlefield and you get 1 mana. You activate the ability and two new Eldrazi Spawns etb. That's 2x2 for the Eldrazi subtype, and 2x2 for the Spawn subtype, which results in 4 brand new colorless mana (which yes, would result in infinite tokens.)
I'd, however, wait for someone more knowledgeable to weigh in.
As far as this aspect of the question is concerned, I don't believe that it will "double dip" so to speak and count the same creature multiple times. Mana Echoes adds (1) to your mana pool by counting each creature you control that shares a type with it-- I do not believe it cares how many types it may share. For example, if you had a creature with the Eldrazi subtype and another with the Spawn subtype, an Eldrazi Spawn entering the battle field would count all three when Mana Echoes trigger resolves, giving (3) mana. If you controlled two Eldrazi Spawn and a third entered the battlefield, you should again only receive (3) mana from the Mana Echoes trigger, despite the creatures sharing two subtypes.
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These visions of mine... are they still daydreams if the sun is dead? Are they waking nightmares, instead, or is that what they always were?
As of now, the oracle text for Mana Echoes is "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, you may add X to your mana pool, where X is the number of creatures you control that share a creature type with it."
I believe that, if it were to count a creature only once, it would end with "that share one or more creature types with it" instead.
The rule I mentioned above clarifies that a creature with multiple subtypes should have those types counted separately, if I'm understanding it correctly (maybe not!).
thus my confusion in how to calculate the mana received with only 1 type per creature like Increasing Devotion (5 creatures * 5 mana each = 25 mana) and multiple types per creature like in my eldrazi/drone/spawn issue.
I can understand both MMPlainview's explanation and Verys'/pok_onnet's explanation, but which is proper? I ask in case someone boardwipes during the process (like Fated Retribution) or for whatever reason, I have to show how much I would have. Seems the number would be different depending on method.
As of now, the oracle text for Mana Echoes is "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, you may add X to your mana pool, where X is the number of creatures you control that share a creature type with it."
I believe that, if it were to count a creature only once, it would end with "that share one or more creature types with it" instead.
The rule I mentioned above clarifies that a creature with multiple subtypes should have those types counted separately, if I'm understanding it correctly (maybe not!).
I'm open to being wrong on the matter too, but in this case I'm not so sure... if you ask the question "how many creatures do I control that share a creature type with Eldrazi Spawn?" when you have three Eldrazi Spawn in play, the answer is still just 3 despite them sharing two creature subtypes! I believe the rules that you linked regarding creature types is meant to be interpreted more along the lines of: a creature that is a Kithkin Soldier has both the subtype Kithkin AND the subtype Soldier, thus caring about effects that are related to either, rather than having Kithkin Soldier as its own distinct subtype.
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These visions of mine... are they still daydreams if the sun is dead? Are they waking nightmares, instead, or is that what they always were?
I'm open to being wrong on the matter too, but in this case I'm not so sure... if you ask the question "how many creatures do I control that share a creature type with Eldrazi Spawn?" when you have three Eldrazi Spawn in play, the answer is still just 3 despite them sharing two creature subtypes! I believe the rules that you linked regarding creature types is meant to be interpreted more along the lines of: a creature that is a Kithkin Soldier has both the subtype Kithkin AND the subtype Soldier, thus caring about effects that are related to either, rather than having Kithkin Soldier as its own distinct subtype.
Makes sense.
Indeed, yes, 3 would be the correct answer for that question, since they're all Eldrazi Spawn. But let's say I have an Eldrazi Spawn, an Eldrazi Scion, two Eldrazi Drones and a Myr Spawn etb at the same time. I can't see how I could calculate the proper amount of mana Mana Echoes is adding to my pool without making the question for each (sub)type separately. Therefore, it'd be inconsistent, rules-wise, to not follow the same approach when same-double-or-more-type creatures etb.
good to know I'm not the only one confused. this all makes sense to me too. I would think of the "Eldrazi Spawn, an Eldrazi Scion, two Eldrazi Drones and a Myr Spawn etb at the same time" case subtype by subtype myself.
Mana echoes's ability count number of creatures , not count creature's type. Brood monitor has two creature types = Eldrazi and Drone.
So if you control a Mana echoes and a Brood monitor , then another 'Eldarzi Drone' or 'Eldrazi' or 'Drone' creature enters the field , Mana echoes's ability add 2 to your mana pool (Brood monitor + another creature which share a creature type).
And my apologise to my misunderstanding about your question's point.
I'm open to being wrong on the matter too, but in this case I'm not so sure... if you ask the question "how many creatures do I control that share a creature type with Eldrazi Spawn?" when you have three Eldrazi Spawn in play, the answer is still just 3 despite them sharing two creature subtypes! I believe the rules that you linked regarding creature types is meant to be interpreted more along the lines of: a creature that is a Kithkin Soldier has both the subtype Kithkin AND the subtype Soldier, thus caring about effects that are related to either, rather than having Kithkin Soldier as its own distinct subtype.
Makes sense.
Indeed, yes, 3 would be the correct answer for that question, since they're all Eldrazi Spawn. But let's say I have an Eldrazi Spawn, an Eldrazi Scion, two Eldrazi Drones and a Myr Spawn etb at the same time. I can't see how I could calculate the proper amount of mana Mana Echoes is adding to my pool without making the question for each (sub)type separately. Therefore, it'd be inconsistent, rules-wise, to not follow the same approach when same-double-or-more-type creatures etb.
I'm at a doubt regarding this, however.
In my mind though, you're still asking the same question for each creature: how many creatures do I control that share a type with Eldrazi Spawn / Eldrazi Scion / Eldrazi Drone / Myr Spawn? All 5 share a subtype with Eldrazi Spawn, 4 for Eldrazi Scion, 4 for Eldrazi Drone and 2 for Myr Spawn! So essentially, for each creature you simply count the number of creatures you control that share at least one subtype with it. That's what makes the most sense to me, anyhow.
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These visions of mine... are they still daydreams if the sun is dead? Are they waking nightmares, instead, or is that what they always were?
Yeah, indeed. I guess you and pok_onnet are both right.
So, to clarify, it'd count 3x3 if three Elrazi Spawns etb, not 3x3 for each subtype.
However, in the example I last mentioned, it'd work as Verys explained.
Sorry for the confusion. Sometimes my understanding of the rules can be totally backwards.
so basically, the more types a creature I control has, the more possible creatures Mana Echoes would trigger off of for me.
Thus, am I correct in thinking:
Ex. I control just one each of a Eldrazi, Eldrazi Drone, Eldrazi Spawn, Eldrazi Scion, Eldrazi Processor.
- Opponent puts a creature into play that has just Drone, Spawn, Scion, or Processor type, Mana Echoes gives me 1
- Opponent puts a creature into play that has Eldrazi type, Mana Echoes gives me 5
- Opponent puts a creature into play has same pair of types as one of mine (Eldrazi Scion), I just get 1
- I do one of the above and get same appropriate amount including 1 for the new creature I put in as well.
so basically, the more types a creature I control has, the more possible creatures Mana Echoes would trigger off of for me.
Ex. I control just one each of a Eldrazi, Eldrazi Drone, Eldrazi Spawn, Eldrazi Scion, Eldrazi Processor.
- Opponent puts a creature into play that has just Drone, Spawn, Scion, or Processor type, Mana Echoes gives me (1)
- Opponent puts a creature into play that has Eldrazi type, Mana Echoes gives me (5)
- Opponent puts a creature into play has same pair of types as one of mine (Eldrazi Scion), I just get (1)
- I do one of the above and get same appropriate amount including (1) for the new creature I put in as well.
In the third case you get 5 because that pair of types includes Eldrazi, so all five of your creatures share a type with the new creature. Other than that, you seem to have the right idea now.
Thus, am I correct in thinking:
Ex. I control just one each of a Eldrazi, Eldrazi Drone, Eldrazi Spawn, Eldrazi Scion, Eldrazi Processor.
- Opponent puts a creature into play that has just Drone, Spawn, Scion, or Processor type, Mana Echoes gives me 1
- Opponent puts a creature into play that has Eldrazi type, Mana Echoes gives me 5
- Opponent puts a creature into play has same pair of types as one of mine (Eldrazi Scion), I just get 1
- I do one of the above and get same appropriate amount including 1 for the new creature I put in as well.
In the third case, the game is looking for creatures that share the Eldrazi or Scion subtype, meaning that you will get a trigger from Mana Echoes which gives you (5) mana, as you control 5 creatures that share the Eldrazi subtype with it (one of which also shares the Scion subtype, but as we've established, you don't count the same creature twice).
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These visions of mine... are they still daydreams if the sun is dead? Are they waking nightmares, instead, or is that what they always were?
Mana Echoes can't count creature types, just 'hey, does any creature type match this creature'?
Otherwise if you have one changeling and play another, it shouldn't produce two hundred C.
That's exactly what I thought. It just cares about IF a creature shares a type NOT how many types. Else it would be absolutely broken with changelings.
It's a simple boolean, either a creature is true (this shares one or more creature types) or false (this doesn't share any creature types).
You check every other creature on the battlefield as the ability resolves and add 1 to your mana pool for every true creature.
If I'm not mistaking, there exists no Magic card that would count the number of creature types; all such cards count the number of creatures, regardless of the fact that they may share multiple types.
Example: Brood Monitor, Blight Herder, Spawnsire of Ulamog, etc.
How does Mana Echoes treat creatures with multiple creature types entering either individually or at the same time?
A)I have just Mana Echoes and no other creatures, then put Brood Monitor in play; how would I get the total mana?
B)I have just Mana Echoes and no other creatures, then put Spawnsire of Ulamog, activate token ability over and over not using these tokens. How much would each iteration/cycle give me?
I realize it ultimately gives me a lot, basically infinite mana. I just want to clarify the details in case I need to explain it again during a game since my LGS comes to me a lot for rules questions like this.
If there are multiple creatures enter the field at the same time , Mana echoes's ability will trigger that much time simultaneously.
ie three creatures enter the field at the same time , the ability trigger tripple at the same time.
But The value of X is determines as each ability resolves.
So
A) When Brood monitor enters the field , there are two abilities trigger = Brood monitor'ETB ability + Mana echoes ability.
You put these abilities on the stack in order you want. Let's say you put Mana echoes's ability on the stack first = Brood's ETB ability resolves before = you put three token on the field.
Mana echoes will trigger tripple at the same time (again) , you put them on the stack.
Now , there are 4 mana echoes abilities on the stack
Each of them will add 4 to your mana pool.
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).
Then you activate Spaensire's second ability (you need 4 to do this action) , if no one response = you put two tokens onto the field. Mana echoes's ability trigger twice at the same time.
You put the two abilities on the stack , if no one response = each of them will add 3 to your mana pool (because now you control three Eldrasi creatures - Spawnsire + two tokens).
And so on.
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).
What I believe will happen is this:
A) Mana Echoes specifically mentions "creature type", so, as per rule 302.3. (below; refer to bolded parts), when Brood Monitor and its tokens etb (simultaneously), you'll be getting 1 mana for the Drone subtype, 4x4 mana for the Eldrazi subtype and 3x3 mana for the Scion subtype. Therefore, 26 colorless mana.
B) Spawnsire of Ulamog enters the battlefield and you get 1 mana. You activate the ability and two new Eldrazi Spawns etb. That's 2x3 for the Eldrazi subtype, and 2x2 for the Spawn subtype, which results in 7 brand new colorless mana (which yes, would result in infinite tokens and infinite mana; i.e. subsequent activations would result in 2x5 mana for the Eldrazi subtype and 2x4 for the Spawn subtype, then 2x7 and 2x6, etc.)
I'd, however, wait for someone more knowledgeable to weigh in.
*Creature subtypes are always a single word and are listed after a long dash: “Creature — Human
Soldier,” “Artifact Creature — Golem,” and so on. Creature subtypes are also called creature types.
Creatures may have multiple subtypes. See rule 205.3m for the complete list of creature types.
Example: “Creature — Goblin Wizard” means the card is a creature with the subtypes
Goblin and Wizard.
The Game will looking for number of creatures you control that share creature type with Brood Monitor to determine the value of X as the ability resolves.
So according to the strategy I have mentioned above , you can let Mana echoes's ability which trigger from Brood monitor resolves last. At that time , Game will see you control 4 Eldrazi creatures - Brood monitor + three tokens.
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).
As far as this aspect of the question is concerned, I don't believe that it will "double dip" so to speak and count the same creature multiple times. Mana Echoes adds (1) to your mana pool by counting each creature you control that shares a type with it-- I do not believe it cares how many types it may share. For example, if you had a creature with the Eldrazi subtype and another with the Spawn subtype, an Eldrazi Spawn entering the battle field would count all three when Mana Echoes trigger resolves, giving (3) mana. If you controlled two Eldrazi Spawn and a third entered the battlefield, you should again only receive (3) mana from the Mana Echoes trigger, despite the creatures sharing two subtypes.
As of now, the oracle text for Mana Echoes is "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, you may add X to your mana pool, where X is the number of creatures you control that share a creature type with it."
I believe that, if it were to count a creature only once, it would end with "that share one or more creature types with it" instead.
The rule I mentioned above clarifies that a creature with multiple subtypes should have those types counted separately, if I'm understanding it correctly (maybe not!).
I can understand both MMPlainview's explanation and Verys'/pok_onnet's explanation, but which is proper? I ask in case someone boardwipes during the process (like Fated Retribution) or for whatever reason, I have to show how much I would have. Seems the number would be different depending on method.
I'm open to being wrong on the matter too, but in this case I'm not so sure... if you ask the question "how many creatures do I control that share a creature type with Eldrazi Spawn?" when you have three Eldrazi Spawn in play, the answer is still just 3 despite them sharing two creature subtypes! I believe the rules that you linked regarding creature types is meant to be interpreted more along the lines of: a creature that is a Kithkin Soldier has both the subtype Kithkin AND the subtype Soldier, thus caring about effects that are related to either, rather than having Kithkin Soldier as its own distinct subtype.
Makes sense.
Indeed, yes, 3 would be the correct answer for that question, since they're all Eldrazi Spawn. But let's say I have an Eldrazi Spawn, an Eldrazi Scion, two Eldrazi Drones and a Myr Spawn etb at the same time. I can't see how I could calculate the proper amount of mana Mana Echoes is adding to my pool without making the question for each (sub)type separately. Therefore, it'd be inconsistent, rules-wise, to not follow the same approach when same-double-or-more-type creatures etb.
I'm at a doubt regarding this, however.
Brood monitor has two creature types = Eldrazi and Drone.
So if you control a Mana echoes and a Brood monitor , then another 'Eldarzi Drone' or 'Eldrazi' or 'Drone' creature enters the field , Mana echoes's ability add 2 to your mana pool (Brood monitor + another creature which share a creature type).
And my apologise to my misunderstanding about your question's point.
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).
In my mind though, you're still asking the same question for each creature: how many creatures do I control that share a type with Eldrazi Spawn / Eldrazi Scion / Eldrazi Drone / Myr Spawn? All 5 share a subtype with Eldrazi Spawn, 4 for Eldrazi Scion, 4 for Eldrazi Drone and 2 for Myr Spawn! So essentially, for each creature you simply count the number of creatures you control that share at least one subtype with it. That's what makes the most sense to me, anyhow.
So, to clarify, it'd count 3x3 if three Elrazi Spawns etb, not 3x3 for each subtype.
However, in the example I last mentioned, it'd work as Verys explained.
Sorry for the confusion. Sometimes my understanding of the rules can be totally backwards.
Thus, am I correct in thinking:
Ex. I control just one each of a Eldrazi, Eldrazi Drone, Eldrazi Spawn, Eldrazi Scion, Eldrazi Processor.
- Opponent puts a creature into play that has just Drone, Spawn, Scion, or Processor type, Mana Echoes gives me 1
- Opponent puts a creature into play that has Eldrazi type, Mana Echoes gives me 5
- Opponent puts a creature into play has same pair of types as one of mine (Eldrazi Scion), I just get 1
- I do one of the above and get same appropriate amount including 1 for the new creature I put in as well.
In the third case you get 5 because that pair of types includes Eldrazi, so all five of your creatures share a type with the new creature. Other than that, you seem to have the right idea now.
In the third case, the game is looking for creatures that share the Eldrazi or Scion subtype, meaning that you will get a trigger from Mana Echoes which gives you (5) mana, as you control 5 creatures that share the Eldrazi subtype with it (one of which also shares the Scion subtype, but as we've established, you don't count the same creature twice).
Otherwise if you have one changeling and play another, it shouldn't produce two hundred C.
That's exactly what I thought. It just cares about IF a creature shares a type NOT how many types. Else it would be absolutely broken with changelings.
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
You check every other creature on the battlefield as the ability resolves and add 1 to your mana pool for every true creature.
Spam warning issued.
- Teia
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