Will Skill Borrower be able to activate again in the following scenarios?
For all of them assume Skill Borrower has been effected by Lifelace and is green.
Different Patron of the Orochi card:
The top card of the library is Patron of the Orochi. Activate Skill Borrower in the upkeep then draw the Patron. A second Patron is now the top card.
Same Patron of the Orochi card, but had a card placed above it
The top card of the library is Patron. Activate Skill Borrow and then cast Fallow Earth putting a land above Patron. Next cast a cantrip and have the Patron be the top card again.
Same Patron of the Orochi card, but had a card placed above it and removed in one spell
The top card of the library is Patron. Activate Skill Borrow and then resolve Footbottom Feast targeting one creature card.
In all three cases, yes, you can activate it again. Whenever the top card of your library changes, or even only becomes face down for a short time, any ability the Borrower gains is a new instance, not impeded by limits on uses of previous instances.
edit:
Here are the related rules
602.5c If an object acquires an activated ability with a restriction on its use from another object, that
restriction applies only to that ability as acquired from that object. It doesn’t apply to other,
identically worded abilities.
401.7. If an effect causes a player to play with the top card of his or her library revealed, and that
particular card stops being revealed for any length of time before being revealed again, it becomes a
new object.
If you activate sensei's divining top to reorder the top three cards of you deck but the patron is still the top card afterwards, is it still a new object?
In that case, the card does not become a new object. The top card of your library does not change while resolving Sensei's.
However, if there are two Patrons in your top three cards and you put the other one on top, it is a new object, and your opponent does not have any way of distinguishing between these two situations. If you do switch Patrons, I don't know if you need to inform your opponent that the top Patron is now a new object, or if you don't need to tell them until you activate it again. I would be interested in getting an answer to that question.
However, if there are two Patrons in your top three cards and you put the other one on top, it is a new object, and your opponent does not have any way of distinguishing between these two situations. If you do switch Patrons, I don't know if you need to inform your opponent that the top Patron is now a new object, or if you don't need to tell them until you activate it again. I would be interested in getting an answer to that question.
You don't have to inform your opponent about the order the cards are put back in.
401.4. If an effect puts two or more cards on the top or bottom of a library at the same time, the owner
of those cards may arrange them in any order. That library’s owner doesn’t reveal the order in
which the cards go into his or her library.
But since that is the case and one cannot technically distinguish between two copies of the same card (even if they have different illustrations), I think, I'll have to change my answer from before. The only way to make the situation work consistently regarding both cases ((1) only one copy of the card among the top three and it's on top, (2) more than one copy among the top three with one on top), is to let the top card be a new object in either case.
But since that is the case and one cannot technically distinguish between two copies of the same card (even if they have different illustrations), I think, I'll have to change my answer from before. The only way to make the situation work consistently regarding both cases ((1) only one copy of the card among the top three and it's on top, (2) more than one copy among the top three with one on top), is to let the top card be a new object in either case.
No, you were right before. The top card does not change during the resolution of Top if you leave it the same, so the Patron is still the same object in that scenario. There are some cases in the rules where the opponent cannot verify that a play is legal (mostly involving Sylvan Library).
It's a case where you have to call a judge to verify, just like if you are doing things with Sylvan Library. In this case, it's simple, as the judge can look at your top three cards and verify whether you had two Patrons to choose from.
Again, there are cases where the rules allow you to make plays that can't be verified (though this is hardly one of the most problematic). That doesn't mean the rules are different from what they are.
Anyway, I'm talking to a judge I trust about this situation. If asked, you do have to say whether the Patron is a different object, because it falls under "Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state", which is listed in the MTR as free information, but you don't have to volunteer that information right away. Where it gets hairier is if instead of activating Top you do something that shuffles your library and you shuffle Patron to the top.
Do you mean if you did something like worldly tutor for the patron that was already on top? I feel like this would count as a new object but I'd understand if it wasnt
I was thinking about cracking a fetchland and ending up with a Patron on top, having no way of knowing whether it is the same one. According to a correct reading of the rules, the Patron is the same object if it is the same copy of Patron and otherwise a different object. In that case, the rules are just broken. However, there is an [O] ruling on Temporal Aperture that says its effect ends if you shuffle your library, so the reasonable thing would be to decide that shuffling makes the top card a different object in general (but not if you Worldly Tutor for the top card of your library, because of 701.16b).
The card is considered a new game object if either it becomes hidden from view and revealed again or if there is no in-game method to verify that it's the same card.
1. In the case of the Top, it becomes a new object.
2. In any scry greater than one, it becomes a new object.
3. If you shuffle and the same Patron card comes back up on top by random chance, it's a new game object.
4. If you search your library for a creature card that happens to be the top card of the library and select it for Worldly Tutor, it's a new game object.
The exception being when the library only contains one card.
There is no rule that says the card is considered a new game object if there is no in-game method to verify that it's the same card, as far as I know. Are you aware of such a rule?
Even if that were a rule, in cases 1, 2, and 4 the card should be physically continuously revealed, and there is no reason to arbitrarily make it a new object.
And why would a library containing one card be an exception?
Because when you tutor for it doesn't just stay on top you search for it, shuffle, then put it on top. And when you only have one card left you know for sure it is on fact the same card
Todd, isn't that all entirely wrong though? The rules are quite clear, and Eli thinking that they should be different does not make them so.
Being able to verify something is entirely secondary to what the rules say. Sylvan Library would not work at all if concerns like that dictated your interpretation of the rules.
So if you Worldly Tutor for the top card of your library by setting it aside and shuffling the rest, then it is not a new object? And if you Top or Scry 3 by putting the top card of your library on the table and picking up the next and doing something with them, then the top card is not a new object?
Keep in mind that when Skill Borrower is involved it is generally (but not always) to the controller's advantage to have the top card be a new object.
That's not based on any rule though, right? It's just what would be nice if it were true? I am aware of the ever-present temptation to conflate those two things.
I think you misinterpreted the answer you linked above (which is also not a [O] ruling). In that case, the card is not revealed during the movement because, from the game's perspective, there is no such thing as "during" the movement. It's an instantaneous event. In the same way that when you draw a card there is no point where it is between your library and your hand.
I don't disagree with you that that is how it would get ruled in a tournament, but this cavalier approach is how the broken parts of the rules end up not getting fixed year after year. Then you have situations like how Twinflame worked, where it's impossible to tell whether you should do what the rules say or just make something up that sounds good. You mentioned above the importance of having rulings be consistent. I don't think contradicting the actual rules when they don't feel right is going to achieve that goal.
We are veering off the actual question into the philosophy of the game, of course.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Todd, would any of this change if the game was EDH and so we KNOW there is only one copy of the card?
I'm assuming you're responding to this statement that Todd wrote:
Two cards are moved, if both stay on top and we see the resulting top card following the scry appears to be the same, we can't be certain that it's the same card. The possibility exists that the other card in the set was a second copy.
The answer is that no, the response given would not change. Because the Commander format doesn't have any rules pertaining to new objects other than the ones that specifically appear in the Commander format, any cases where new-object rules would apply to objects seen in regular games apply in Commander, too.
---
With regard to Sensei's Divining Top, while the opponent can't ask what the identity of any card in the library is unless it's face-up, they are able to ask what permutation you decided to leave the top cards of your library in afterward. This is an indirect result of the opponent being able to ask you to keep game actions clear to all players and to prevent cheating.
---
Concerning Worldly Tutor, there is no way that the top card of the library before and after the shuffle can be the same object, regardless of how many cards with a given name can be in the library.
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
With regard to Sensei's Divining Top, while the opponent can't ask what the identity of any card in the library is unless it's face-up, they are able to ask what permutation you decided to leave the top cards of your library in afterward. This is an indirect result of the opponent being able to ask you to keep game actions clear to all players and to prevent cheating.
He may ask, but he isn't entitled to an answer:
401.4. If an effect puts two or more cards on the top or bottom of a library at the same time, the owner
of those cards may arrange them in any order. That library’s owner doesn’t reveal the order in
which the cards go into his or her library.
there is a fuzzy area in rulings, but if you Want it to be a new object, then you wouldn't have to make any special effort to ensure it does remain the same object, as in a scry??
With regard to Sensei's Divining Top, while the opponent can't ask what the identity of any card in the library is unless it's face-up, they are able to ask what permutation you decided to leave the top cards of your library in afterward. This is an indirect result of the opponent being able to ask you to keep game actions clear to all players and to prevent cheating.
He may ask, but he isn't entitled to an answer:
401.4. If an effect puts two or more cards on the top or bottom of a library at the same time, the owner
of those cards may arrange them in any order. That library’s owner doesn’t reveal the order in
which the cards go into his or her library.
That's true, although my response was more in response to the manual dexterity required to resolve the ability, rather than the complete knowledge of the permutation after the cards are put back. The opponent is required to know that the cards were rearranged to any possible permutation of three cards, rather than which exact permutation of three cards you decided to leave the top three cards in.
there is a fuzzy area in rulings, but if you Want it to be a new object, then you wouldn't have to make any special effort to ensure it does remain the same object, as in a scry??
I'm not sure what you're asking here. But the reason why scrying doesn't necessarily make the top card of your library a new object is because both before and after the scry, you know that card's position in the library. If you know that the top card of the library is the same card both before and after the scry action, then you know it's the same game object.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
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For all of them assume Skill Borrower has been effected by Lifelace and is green.
edit:
Here are the related rules
602.5c If an object acquires an activated ability with a restriction on its use from another object, that
restriction applies only to that ability as acquired from that object. It doesn’t apply to other,
identically worded abilities.
401.7. If an effect causes a player to play with the top card of his or her library revealed, and that
particular card stops being revealed for any length of time before being revealed again, it becomes a
new object.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
Monthly Proxy Legacy
Charlotte/Greensboro area, NC
Pm me for details
However, if there are two Patrons in your top three cards and you put the other one on top, it is a new object, and your opponent does not have any way of distinguishing between these two situations. If you do switch Patrons, I don't know if you need to inform your opponent that the top Patron is now a new object, or if you don't need to tell them until you activate it again. I would be interested in getting an answer to that question.
No. The card is the top card of the library and stays revealed the whole time.
However, if you use Sensei's Divinig Top twice, once to change the top card and once to change it back, then it will be a new object.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
You don't have to inform your opponent about the order the cards are put back in.
But since that is the case and one cannot technically distinguish between two copies of the same card (even if they have different illustrations), I think, I'll have to change my answer from before. The only way to make the situation work consistently regarding both cases ((1) only one copy of the card among the top three and it's on top, (2) more than one copy among the top three with one on top), is to let the top card be a new object in either case.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Again, there are cases where the rules allow you to make plays that can't be verified (though this is hardly one of the most problematic). That doesn't mean the rules are different from what they are.
Anyway, I'm talking to a judge I trust about this situation. If asked, you do have to say whether the Patron is a different object, because it falls under "Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state", which is listed in the MTR as free information, but you don't have to volunteer that information right away. Where it gets hairier is if instead of activating Top you do something that shuffles your library and you shuffle Patron to the top.
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
Monthly Proxy Legacy
Charlotte/Greensboro area, NC
Pm me for details
There is no rule that says the card is considered a new game object if there is no in-game method to verify that it's the same card, as far as I know. Are you aware of such a rule?
Even if that were a rule, in cases 1, 2, and 4 the card should be physically continuously revealed, and there is no reason to arbitrarily make it a new object.
And why would a library containing one card be an exception?
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
Monthly Proxy Legacy
Charlotte/Greensboro area, NC
Pm me for details
Being able to verify something is entirely secondary to what the rules say. Sylvan Library would not work at all if concerns like that dictated your interpretation of the rules.
Keep in mind that when Skill Borrower is involved it is generally (but not always) to the controller's advantage to have the top card be a new object.
I think you misinterpreted the answer you linked above (which is also not a [O] ruling). In that case, the card is not revealed during the movement because, from the game's perspective, there is no such thing as "during" the movement. It's an instantaneous event. In the same way that when you draw a card there is no point where it is between your library and your hand.
We are veering off the actual question into the philosophy of the game, of course.
I'm assuming you're responding to this statement that Todd wrote:
The answer is that no, the response given would not change. Because the Commander format doesn't have any rules pertaining to new objects other than the ones that specifically appear in the Commander format, any cases where new-object rules would apply to objects seen in regular games apply in Commander, too.
---
With regard to Sensei's Divining Top, while the opponent can't ask what the identity of any card in the library is unless it's face-up, they are able to ask what permutation you decided to leave the top cards of your library in afterward. This is an indirect result of the opponent being able to ask you to keep game actions clear to all players and to prevent cheating.
---
Concerning Worldly Tutor, there is no way that the top card of the library before and after the shuffle can be the same object, regardless of how many cards with a given name can be in the library.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
He may ask, but he isn't entitled to an answer:
401.4. If an effect puts two or more cards on the top or bottom of a library at the same time, the owner
of those cards may arrange them in any order. That library’s owner doesn’t reveal the order in
which the cards go into his or her library.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
there is a fuzzy area in rulings, but if you Want it to be a new object, then you wouldn't have to make any special effort to ensure it does remain the same object, as in a scry??
That's true, although my response was more in response to the manual dexterity required to resolve the ability, rather than the complete knowledge of the permutation after the cards are put back. The opponent is required to know that the cards were rearranged to any possible permutation of three cards, rather than which exact permutation of three cards you decided to leave the top three cards in.
I'm not sure what you're asking here. But the reason why scrying doesn't necessarily make the top card of your library a new object is because both before and after the scry, you know that card's position in the library. If you know that the top card of the library is the same card both before and after the scry action, then you know it's the same game object.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall