Cascading into Living End is the win-con of a popular Modern deck. I assume when you Cascade into Living End, I assume it counts "no mana cost" as "mana cost 0", thus you can cast it with cascade.
Using that same logic of "no mana cost = CMC 0", you should be able to turn a manifested Dryad Arbor face-up for free, but I just read on here this isn't the case, you cannot flip a Dryad Arbor at all. Why is this?
I've read rulings on both cascade and manifest, but nothing I've seen addresses cards with no mana cost. In fact, Cascade reads "exile until you exile a card that costs less", but Living End doesn't cost less as it has no CMC. It seems to me that not being able to manifest a Dryad Arbor would mean cascading into Living End would be an illegall play.
Cascading into Living End is the win-con of a popular Modern deck. I assume when you Cascade into Living End, I assume it counts "no mana cost" as "mana cost 0", thus you can cast it with cascade.
Using that same logic of "no mana cost = CMC 0", you should be able to turn a manifested Dryad Arbor face-up for free, but I just read on here this isn't the case, you cannot flip a Dryad Arbor at all. Why is this?
I've read rulings on both cascade and manifest, but nothing I've seen addresses cards with no mana cost. In fact, Cascade reads "exile until you exile a card that costs less", but Living End doesn't cost less as it has no CMC. It seems to me that not being able to manifest a Dryad Arbor would mean cascading into Living End would be an illegall play.
The difference comes down to the difference between the terms "mana cost" and "converted mana cost". The "mana cost" of a card is the collection of mana symbols (both colored and colorless/generic) in the upper right corner of the card. The "converted mana cost" is a number indicating "how much" mana there is in the "mana cost".
If a card has no mana symbols in the upper right corner, it does not have a mana cost. Living End is an example of such a card. Such a card cannot be cast normally, because a non-existent mana cost simply cannot be paid. However, if an effect lets you cast a spell "without paying its mana cost", you can cast that spell, because you do no need to try (and fail) to pay the non-existent mana cost. The original Suspend mechanic works like that, and so does Cascade. Cascade finds a card with a smaller "converted mana cost" and then lets you cast that card "without paying its mana cost". That is why cascading into Living End works. Also note that the converted mana cost of a card with no mana cost is still 0; there's obviously no mana in the mana cost if there is no mana cost to begin with.
Manifest, however, requires you to pay the actual "mana cost" of the card to turn it face-up. And if a card does not have a mana cost, you simply cannot pay mana cost. And so you can never turn a manifested Dryad Arbor face-up.
702.84. Cascade
702.84a. Cascade is a triggered ability that functions only while the spell with cascade is on the stack. "Cascade" means "When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost. You may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards exiled this way that weren't cast on the bottom of your library in a random order."
701.31. Manifest
701.31b. Any time you have priority, you may turn a manifested permanent you control face up. This is a special action that doesn't use the stack (see rule 115.2b). To do this, show all players that the card representing that permanent is a creature card and what that card's mana cost is, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. The effect defining its characteristics while it was face down ends, and it regains its normal characteristics. (If the card representing that permanent isn't a creature card or it doesn't have a mana cost, it can't be turned face up this way.)
202.1. A card's mana cost is indicated by mana symbols near the top of the card. (See rule 107.4.) On most cards, these symbols are printed in the upper right corner. Some cards from the Future Sight set have alternate frames in which the mana symbols appear to the left of the illustration.
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost, regardless of color.
Example: A mana cost of {3}{U}{U} translates to a converted mana cost of 5.
202.3a. The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0.
You misunderstand me about Living End. I'm not saying cascade reduces the cost. Why is it that a card with a non-existent mana cost can be cast using cascade at all?It doesn't cost less than the cascade spell, since it doesn't have a cost.
And in relation to Dryad Arbor, I get your explanation, but why is it in one instance a non-existent mana cost is considered a cost (since Living End 'costs' less than any cascade spell), and one instance not considered a cost (Dryad Arbor can't be flipped since no cost).
You misunderstand me about Living End. I'm not saying cascade reduces the cost. Why is it that a card with a non-existent mana cost can be cast using cascade at all?It doesn't cost less than the cascade spell, since it doesn't have a cost.
Cascade does not care about a spells cost it cares about its Converted Mana Cost, which every card in the game has. It is the sum of all the mana symbols in the casting cost or 0 if the card is a land or a spell with no casting cost like living end or the pacts
And in relation to Dryad Arbor, I get your explanation, but why is it in one instance a non-existent mana cost is considered a cost (since Living End 'costs' less than any cascade spell), and one instance not considered a cost (Dryad Arbor can't be flipped since no cost).
With Cascade you are being asked to compare the CMC of 0 to something else and it is then ignored when you come to cast the spell. In the case of Manifest you are being asked to pay a nonexistent cost which can't be done.
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You can't manifest dryad arbor because it does not have a mana cost. To manifest the card must have a CMC.
Any object with no stated mana cost has a CMC of 0. However it does not actually have a CMC to cast normally. Cascade is looking to cast anything with less CMC then the cascade spell. It does not care weather or not the card actually has a CMC or not. Cascade lets you cast the spell without paying the CMC which is how it work and why it's different.
Understand that when they say a card with no stated CMC is zero does not mean the casting cost is zero. You can't cast cards with no mana cost. You cast cards with a CMC of 0.
You can't manifest dryad arbor because it does not have a mana cost. To manifest the card must have a CMC.
Any object with no stated mana cost has a CMC of 0. However it does not actually have a CMC to cast normally. Cascade is looking to cast anything with less CMC then the cascade spell. It does not care weather or not the card actually has a CMC or not. Cascade lets you cast the spell without paying the CMC which is how it work and why it's different.
Understand that when they say a card with no stated CMC is zero does not mean the casting cost is zero. You can't cast cards with no mana cost. You cast cards with a CMC of 0.
You are still using the terms Mana Cost and Converted Mana Cost (CMC) incorrectly here. Read above the thread to see the difference.
To turn a manifested permanent face-down, the card must have a Mana Cost. Manifest don't care about the CMC.
Mana Cost is a cost of mana, the mana symbols that can be found on the top corner of a card. Some objects have no mana cost, because there are no mana symbols where the mana cost should be. Those you can't cast normally.
Converted Mana Cost is a number, that represents how much mana there is on the Mana Cost. It is the converted value of the mana cost. Every object has a CMC; if the object has no Mana Cost, the Converted Mana Cost of it is 0. It is truly, precisely 0, not "let's pretend it is 0 for the following cases". And more importantly, you can't pay CMCs, and you don't cast spells by their CMC, because it is just a number not a cost.
To cast a spell, it has to have a mana cost, or an alternative cost being applied to it. "Without paying its mana cost" is considered an alternative cost so it allows you to cast spells with no mana cost.
Perhaps this can make the point more clear: Manifest applies the same way to all cards with no mana cost, and Cascade applies the same way to all cards with no converted mana cost. The reason you don't get to cast a Dryad Arbor off of Cascade is because the mechanic is written to specifically not allow you to flip lands. That's all; if that clause were not there, and "cast" was modified, then you would be able to put a flipped Arbor into play because it does indeed have a converted mana cost of zero.
There's similarly no difference in how Manifest treats Dryad Arbor or any other spell without a mana cost. Assuming they printed a Suspend creature with no mana cost, then you would not be able to flip that up to manifest just like you can't flip up Arbor.
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Cascading into Living End is the win-con of a popular Modern deck. I assume when you Cascade into Living End, I assume it counts "no mana cost" as "mana cost 0", thus you can cast it with cascade.
Using that same logic of "no mana cost = CMC 0", you should be able to turn a manifested Dryad Arbor face-up for free, but I just read on here this isn't the case, you cannot flip a Dryad Arbor at all. Why is this?
I've read rulings on both cascade and manifest, but nothing I've seen addresses cards with no mana cost. In fact, Cascade reads "exile until you exile a card that costs less", but Living End doesn't cost less as it has no CMC. It seems to me that not being able to manifest a Dryad Arbor would mean cascading into Living End would be an illegall play.
The difference comes down to the difference between the terms "mana cost" and "converted mana cost". The "mana cost" of a card is the collection of mana symbols (both colored and colorless/generic) in the upper right corner of the card. The "converted mana cost" is a number indicating "how much" mana there is in the "mana cost".
If a card has no mana symbols in the upper right corner, it does not have a mana cost. Living End is an example of such a card. Such a card cannot be cast normally, because a non-existent mana cost simply cannot be paid. However, if an effect lets you cast a spell "without paying its mana cost", you can cast that spell, because you do no need to try (and fail) to pay the non-existent mana cost. The original Suspend mechanic works like that, and so does Cascade. Cascade finds a card with a smaller "converted mana cost" and then lets you cast that card "without paying its mana cost". That is why cascading into Living End works. Also note that the converted mana cost of a card with no mana cost is still 0; there's obviously no mana in the mana cost if there is no mana cost to begin with.
Manifest, however, requires you to pay the actual "mana cost" of the card to turn it face-up. And if a card does not have a mana cost, you simply cannot pay mana cost. And so you can never turn a manifested Dryad Arbor face-up.
702.84. Cascade
702.84a. Cascade is a triggered ability that functions only while the spell with cascade is on the stack. "Cascade" means "When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost. You may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards exiled this way that weren't cast on the bottom of your library in a random order."
701.31. Manifest
701.31b. Any time you have priority, you may turn a manifested permanent you control face up. This is a special action that doesn't use the stack (see rule 115.2b). To do this, show all players that the card representing that permanent is a creature card and what that card's mana cost is, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. The effect defining its characteristics while it was face down ends, and it regains its normal characteristics. (If the card representing that permanent isn't a creature card or it doesn't have a mana cost, it can't be turned face up this way.)
202.1. A card's mana cost is indicated by mana symbols near the top of the card. (See rule 107.4.) On most cards, these symbols are printed in the upper right corner. Some cards from the Future Sight set have alternate frames in which the mana symbols appear to the left of the illustration.
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost, regardless of color.
Example: A mana cost of {3}{U}{U} translates to a converted mana cost of 5.
202.3a. The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0.
And in relation to Dryad Arbor, I get your explanation, but why is it in one instance a non-existent mana cost is considered a cost (since Living End 'costs' less than any cascade spell), and one instance not considered a cost (Dryad Arbor can't be flipped since no cost).
Cascade does not care about a spells cost it cares about its Converted Mana Cost, which every card in the game has. It is the sum of all the mana symbols in the casting cost or 0 if the card is a land or a spell with no casting cost like living end or the pacts
With Cascade you are being asked to compare the CMC of 0 to something else and it is then ignored when you come to cast the spell. In the case of Manifest you are being asked to pay a nonexistent cost which can't be done.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Any object with no stated mana cost has a CMC of 0. However it does not actually have a CMC to cast normally. Cascade is looking to cast anything with less CMC then the cascade spell. It does not care weather or not the card actually has a CMC or not. Cascade lets you cast the spell without paying the CMC which is how it work and why it's different.
Understand that when they say a card with no stated CMC is zero does not mean the casting cost is zero. You can't cast cards with no mana cost. You cast cards with a CMC of 0.
You are still using the terms Mana Cost and Converted Mana Cost (CMC) incorrectly here. Read above the thread to see the difference.
To turn a manifested permanent face-down, the card must have a Mana Cost. Manifest don't care about the CMC.
Mana Cost is a cost of mana, the mana symbols that can be found on the top corner of a card. Some objects have no mana cost, because there are no mana symbols where the mana cost should be. Those you can't cast normally.
Converted Mana Cost is a number, that represents how much mana there is on the Mana Cost. It is the converted value of the mana cost. Every object has a CMC; if the object has no Mana Cost, the Converted Mana Cost of it is 0. It is truly, precisely 0, not "let's pretend it is 0 for the following cases". And more importantly, you can't pay CMCs, and you don't cast spells by their CMC, because it is just a number not a cost.
To cast a spell, it has to have a mana cost, or an alternative cost being applied to it. "Without paying its mana cost" is considered an alternative cost so it allows you to cast spells with no mana cost.
There's similarly no difference in how Manifest treats Dryad Arbor or any other spell without a mana cost. Assuming they printed a Suspend creature with no mana cost, then you would not be able to flip that up to manifest just like you can't flip up Arbor.