I control Chandra Ablaze. I activate The Chain Veil's ability, and it resolves. I know that I have the luxury of activating one of the loyalty abilities of my Chandra Ablaze again this turn. So I do so.
Then, I cast and resolve Jace Beleren. Why does or doesn't Jace Beleren have the luxury of having its abilities activated twice rather than just once this turn, and what CR rule applies in this situation?
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
The FAQ on M15 is not out yet, I don't think. However, reading the card itself suggests that you only get a benefit out of Chain Veil if you activate AFTER you have used all your Planeswalker loyalty abilities. It does not say each of your walkers gets "an additional" loyalty ability. It just says you can use them as if you had not yet used them this turn. Think of it as resetting a flag that gets set for each walker once you've actually used the ability. "Reloading" the walker, so to speak. If you have already not used a walker that turn, then this ability appears to do nothing. You can't "reload" a loaded gun.
The FAQ on M15 is not out yet, I don't think. However, reading the card itself suggests that you only get a benefit out of Chain Veil if you activate AFTER you have used all your Planeswalker loyalty abilities. It does not say each of your walkers gets "an additional" loyalty ability. It just says you can use them as if you had not yet used them this turn. Think of it as resetting a flag that gets set for each walker once you've actually used the ability. "Reloading" the walker, so to speak. If you have already not used a walker that turn, then this ability appears to do nothing. You can't "reload" a loaded gun.
Oh, I'm sorry if I wasn't quite clear on the question. The main question at hand was whether Jace Beleren would get the extra benefit if it entered after the resolution of The Chain Veil's activated ability.
I suppose the question would be: The Chain Veil's ability says "For each planeswalker you control, [something is true about that planeswalker]." Jace Beleren enters the battlefield after The Chain Veil's ability has resolved. Is [something] true about Jace Beleren?
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[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Based on the templating of the card, it will not. It evaluates your board and grants an exception to the loyalty ability rule to each planeswalker you control. You don't control Jace Beleren when you activate The Chain Veil.
The most relevant rule, I would think, is:
608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that's become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if its in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it's no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it's the object as it exists -- or as it most recently existed -- that does it, not the ability.
It gathers the information on the planeswalkers you currently control as it's resolving, grants each one the additional activation, and locks in the information as it resolves.
Even though the [something] is clearly true, The Chain Veil doesn't care because its ability has already evaluated the planeswalkers that you had on the battlefield when its ability resolved.
Cythare, isn't this templated more like a card that says, "Creatures you control are indestructible this turn" rather than "Each creature you control gains "Indestructible" until end of turn?" The former would affect any future creatures you control that turn, the latter would not. Chain Veil, the use of the term "each" notwithstanding, doesn't give each planeswalker an ability; it just tells you that your planeswalker ability rule has been reset for each of your walkers.
@TabakRules if you play a PW after activating Chain Veil, can you use that PWs ability twice that turn?
@christianlupica Sure.
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[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
@TabakRules if you play a PW after activating Chain Veil, can you use that PWs ability twice that turn?
@christianlupica Sure.
Yeah, saw that. I guess that's the answer, then, but it seems to not line up with what I would expect. Some additional clarification would be nice (probably when the M15 FAQ comes out).
Cythare, isn't this templated more like a card that says, "Creatures you control are indestructible this turn" rather than "Each creature you control gains "Indestructible" until end of turn?" The former would affect any future creatures you control that turn, the latter would not. Chain Veil, the use of the term "each" notwithstanding, doesn't give each planeswalker an ability; it just tells you that your planeswalker ability rule has been reset for each of your walkers.
No, it isn't. Also, note that the "creatures you control are indestructible" is outdated wording.
It's the "for each planeswalker you control, thing" that makes me think it should not apply to new planeswalkers as that reads like the ability is locking in the subset of permanents it applies to as it resolves, as opposed to being worded "You may activate one loyalty ability of each planeswalker you control this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn." which does change the overall rules of the game for you for the turn.
Anyways, I'm not the rules manager, so go with his ruling.
Anyways, I'm not the rules manager, so go with his ruling.
I understand this is a bit off-topic, and I can make a new thread if necessary in the appropriate section (or this can be moved or manipulated as mods wish), but why is it that everything that Tabak says regarding the rules of MTG is to be believed? Yes, he's a rules manager, but there are well-established Comprehensive Rules that are also an authority to the game, and Tabak is a person, too. Tabak does make mistakes, and he does potentially make mistakes with rulings, too.
I imagine a scenario as follows, where Tabak says "Lightning Bolt only does 2 damage to creatures and players now" but the Oracle text of the card has not been updated and the CR has not been amended to accommodate this change. Regardless of whether the Oracle text was changed, Tabak has said it, which means people are inclined to believe him, but Tabak is clearly wrong despite his being the rules manager for the game. This is a pretty extreme case, but it is still a case that violates the very CR that he is capable of controlling.
(Those of you who have lurked around this subforum for at least a month will most likely know what I'm talking about, but I won't bring it up specifically here.)
611.2c If a continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability modifies the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects, the set of objects it affects is determined when that continuous effect begins. After that point, the set won’t change. (Note that this works differently than a continuous effect from a static ability.) A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability that doesn’t modify the characteristics or change the controller of any objects modifies the rules of the game, so it can affect objects that weren’t affected when that continuous effect began. If a single continuous effect has parts that modify the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects and other parts that don’t, the set of objects each part applies to is determined independently.
It's conceivable that the set of objects affected is locked in, but under current rules that doesn't appear to be the case.
But what does "affects" mean? How do we know that the ability "affects" "each planeswalker [the controller of the ability] controls" without knowing what the word "affects" mean? Are the planeswalkers "affected" simply because the ability mentions something true about them?
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Yes, if you believe that cards should be interpreted according to their Original Ruled Functionality. As printed, it looks like Veil is at least ambiguous; several of us had different reasoning to come to different results about how it works.
P.S. What he did with Reconnaissance is different; it's errata and he did in fact change the Oracle text to accommodate.
The FAQ on M15 is not out yet, I don't think. However, reading the card itself suggests that you only get a benefit out of Chain Veil if you activate AFTER you have used all your Planeswalker loyalty abilities. It does not say each of your walkers gets "an additional" loyalty ability. It just says you can use them as if you had not yet used them this turn. Think of it as resetting a flag that gets set for each walker once you've actually used the ability. "Reloading" the walker, so to speak. If you have already not used a walker that turn, then this ability appears to do nothing. You can't "reload" a loaded gun.
FAQ might resolve this differently, though.
That interpretation seems wrong to me. You can activate a planeswalker twice even if the Veil's ability resolved before that, because you don't have to invoke the Veil's effect the first time. The Veil gives you a permission, but you don't have to use that permission if you haven't activated the PW yet. You can use the special permission after you've activated it normally.
To go with your analogy, The Chain Veil doesn't necessarily "reload your gun" right away. It does reload a PW if you've already activated one of its abilities, but otherwise, it will wait to "reload" it after you've used your normal activation.
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
I understand this is a bit off-topic, and I can make a new thread if necessary in the appropriate section (or this can be moved or manipulated as mods wish), but why is it that everything that Tabak says regarding the rules of MTG is to be believed? Yes, he's a rules manager, but there are well-established Comprehensive Rules that are also an authority to the game, and Tabak is a person, too. Tabak does make mistakes, and he does potentially make mistakes with rulings, too.
As the Rules Manager, it's his job to take care to provide correct information. And he does that -- you'll notice that Matt really only steps into situations that don't have a clear answer otherwise (as in this case, where the general public doesn't yet know the content of the M15 FAQ, but he already does).
I imagine a scenario as follows, where Tabak says "Lightning Bolt only does 2 damage to creatures and players now" but the Oracle text of the card has not been updated and the CR has not been amended to accommodate this change. Regardless of whether the Oracle text was changed, Tabak has said it, which means people are inclined to believe him, but Tabak is clearly wrong despite his being the rules manager for the game. This is a pretty extreme case, but it is still a case that violates the very CR that he is capable of controlling.
He could in theory do this, but he doesn't. And when speaking as Rules Manager, he's not wrong. He is occasionally wrong about sports teams, though, but he doesn't pick them in an official capacity.
To bring it down to earth, the same is true of every Head Judge of a sanctioned tournament. The ruling of a Head Judge is, by definition, correct, since a Head Judge is defined to be the final authority on card, rules and policy interpretation in the tournament (that's why it isn't possible to appeal to WotC/the DCI/etc. to overturn a Head Judge).
That's very very rarely relevant, though. The only time I've ever personally had to invoke that was at a prerelease where I used HJ fiat to "errata" a stack of basic lands to be Swamps, since we'd run out of those. The only time I've ever heard of that it mattered was the Cyril Grillon story (Google "Cyril Grillon Yawgmoth's Will" for the story), and the DCI backed him up with the "final authority" wording.
I control Chandra Ablaze. I activate The Chain Veil's ability, and it resolves. I know that I have the luxury of activating one of the loyalty abilities of my Chandra Ablaze again this turn. So I do so.
Then, I cast and resolve Jace Beleren. Why does or doesn't Jace Beleren have the luxury of having its abilities activated twice rather than just once this turn, and what CR rule applies in this situation?
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
FAQ might resolve this differently, though.
Oh, I'm sorry if I wasn't quite clear on the question. The main question at hand was whether Jace Beleren would get the extra benefit if it entered after the resolution of The Chain Veil's activated ability.
I suppose the question would be:
The Chain Veil's ability says "For each planeswalker you control, [something is true about that planeswalker]."
Jace Beleren enters the battlefield after The Chain Veil's ability has resolved. Is [something] true about Jace Beleren?
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
The most relevant rule, I would think, is:
It gathers the information on the planeswalkers you currently control as it's resolving, grants each one the additional activation, and locks in the information as it resolves.
Even though the [something] is clearly true, The Chain Veil doesn't care because its ability has already evaluated the planeswalkers that you had on the battlefield when its ability resolved.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
https://twitter.com/TabakRules/status/484432726515146752
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
No, it isn't. Also, note that the "creatures you control are indestructible" is outdated wording.
It's the "for each planeswalker you control, thing" that makes me think it should not apply to new planeswalkers as that reads like the ability is locking in the subset of permanents it applies to as it resolves, as opposed to being worded "You may activate one loyalty ability of each planeswalker you control this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn." which does change the overall rules of the game for you for the turn.
Anyways, I'm not the rules manager, so go with his ruling.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I understand this is a bit off-topic, and I can make a new thread if necessary in the appropriate section (or this can be moved or manipulated as mods wish), but why is it that everything that Tabak says regarding the rules of MTG is to be believed? Yes, he's a rules manager, but there are well-established Comprehensive Rules that are also an authority to the game, and Tabak is a person, too. Tabak does make mistakes, and he does potentially make mistakes with rulings, too.
I imagine a scenario as follows, where Tabak says "Lightning Bolt only does 2 damage to creatures and players now" but the Oracle text of the card has not been updated and the CR has not been amended to accommodate this change. Regardless of whether the Oracle text was changed, Tabak has said it, which means people are inclined to believe him, but Tabak is clearly wrong despite his being the rules manager for the game. This is a pretty extreme case, but it is still a case that violates the very CR that he is capable of controlling.
(Those of you who have lurked around this subforum for at least a month will most likely know what I'm talking about, but I won't bring it up specifically here.)
But what does "affects" mean? How do we know that the ability "affects" "each planeswalker [the controller of the ability] controls" without knowing what the word "affects" mean? Are the planeswalkers "affected" simply because the ability mentions something true about them?
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
P.S. What he did with Reconnaissance is different; it's errata and he did in fact change the Oracle text to accommodate.
To go with your analogy, The Chain Veil doesn't necessarily "reload your gun" right away. It does reload a PW if you've already activated one of its abilities, but otherwise, it will wait to "reload" it after you've used your normal activation.
As the Rules Manager, it's his job to take care to provide correct information. And he does that -- you'll notice that Matt really only steps into situations that don't have a clear answer otherwise (as in this case, where the general public doesn't yet know the content of the M15 FAQ, but he already does).
He could in theory do this, but he doesn't. And when speaking as Rules Manager, he's not wrong. He is occasionally wrong about sports teams, though, but he doesn't pick them in an official capacity.
To bring it down to earth, the same is true of every Head Judge of a sanctioned tournament. The ruling of a Head Judge is, by definition, correct, since a Head Judge is defined to be the final authority on card, rules and policy interpretation in the tournament (that's why it isn't possible to appeal to WotC/the DCI/etc. to overturn a Head Judge).
That's very very rarely relevant, though. The only time I've ever personally had to invoke that was at a prerelease where I used HJ fiat to "errata" a stack of basic lands to be Swamps, since we'd run out of those. The only time I've ever heard of that it mattered was the Cyril Grillon story (Google "Cyril Grillon Yawgmoth's Will" for the story), and the DCI backed him up with the "final authority" wording.
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Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.