A local L2 posed this question today, and it appears that it has been asked on this forum before (link). To summarize
I control a Caged sun naming green. I also have a March of the Machines a Conspiracy naming saproling, and a Life and Limb. So the Caged Sun is a forest. When I tap it for mana, does it make it's own effect happen and add an additional mana to the pool? And then since a land's ability added mana to my mana pool, does it happen again and again forever? If so, is it possible to interrupt this loop with instants? That is, since Caged Sun has a mana ability, can spells be played while it's mana ability is happening? Or does the game end in a draw?
The answer given in the forum thread is that yes, it will result in a draw, due to Caged Sun triggering indefinitely, and no one being able to respond to it since it is a mana ability. However, the local L2 disagreed, and essentially cited the following (with emphasis):
605.1b A triggered ability without a target that triggers from activating a mana ability and could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves is a mana ability.
Now, when you tap the Caged Sun, you would add a green mana and the ability would trigger. When the ability resolves, it would add a green mana. However, while Caged Sun would trigger again, it is not triggered by activating a mana ability, so it would not fit the CR for a triggered mana ability, and could thus be responded to.
6/1/2011: Caged Sun's triggered ability is a mana ability, which means the ability doesn't use the stack and can't be responded to.
So, it is a mana ability, and can't be responded to.
As an aside, making a new thread to dispute a thread that's already been answered a locked is a pretty big no-no. It was answered in the thread you linked to. No need to make another thread to answer it again.
Quote from Drifting Skies »
Caged Sun reads: Whenever a land's ability adds one or more mana of the chosen color to your mana pool, add one additional mana of that color to your mana pool. If Caged Sun somehow becomes a land, it will trigger infinitely off its own ability, and since it is a mana ability, it cannot be responded to, even by instants and activated abilities.
As a result, the game ends in a draw due to infinite looping.
Edit- To clarify, the ruling he posted states one thhing that a mana ability is.
605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesnt have a target, it could put mana into a players mana pool when it resolves, and its not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, "Loyalty Abilities.") #
The rule cited in OP doesn't disqualify anything from being a mana ability. It just proves one thing that a mana ability is. The rule i posted lays out actual criteria for a mana ability. You can see caged sun meets this criteria, and this is why it is a mana ability.
I'm gonna add in a second edit down here to let everyone know about the mystery of the disappearing original post. I swear, it was just there.
MTGO is not anything offical rules wise, as it has a lot of wrong interaction and bugs.
Thylakaleo, he is quoting the definition of a triggered mana ability not an activated mana ability(and if it doesn't meet all three of those things then it is not a triggered mana abiity), they follow different requirements, one difference is that they triggered from activating a mana abilty. In the case posted the first activation may qualify, but the 2nd and subsequent ones may not because they were caused by a triggered mana ability and you don't activate triggers. From the posted rule it seems that you could respond to the trigger after the first.
The only way you could perceive as having been triggered from activated was if the game could track that originally the source of everything was the activated mana ability. Which seems quite unlikely to be the case.
This may have been overlooked in the last thread, as it is easily possible no one saw that small oddity in the wording of the requirement of a triggered mana ability.
edit: also the only rule I found on similiar questions would be
2.2 Search for answers. Before asking a question, please check whether your question has been asked recently. If your question was already asked and answered earlier that day, asking the same question again is pointless. If you only find an answer from months ago, please make a new thread for your question, since the answer might have changed
regardless if the answer has changed or not, 2 years is long enough to ask again.
605.1a tells you what kind of ACTIVATED abilities are mana abilities.
605.1b tells you what kind of TRIGGERED abilities are mana abilities.
Caged Sun's ability is a triggered ability, so we look to 605.1b exclusively to answer the question: "Are you a mana ability?"
In order to qualify, it must (1) not have a target; and (2) have triggered from the ACTIVATION of a mana ability.
The first iteration of Caged Sun says, "Why yes, I am a mana ability. Me and Wild Growth are homies."
But then, Caged Sun triggers itself. The new triggered ability gets asked, "Are you a mana ability?"
In order to qualify, it must (1) not have a target; and (2) have triggered from the ACTIVATION of a mana ability.
The second iteration of Caged Sun did not trigger from an activated ability; it triggered from a triggered ability.
So it says, "No way, no how. I'm a cancerous rules growth and I'm spiraling rapidly out of control. I'm gonna go hang out on the stack and let you guys get priority to figure out a way to deal with me."
If I recall correctly, we got the official answer last time that every ability either is or isn't a mana ability; it can't be sometimes one and sometimes not one, depending on circumstance. Since Caged Sun's ability is clearly intended to be a triggered mana ability under normal conditions, it is always a triggered mana ability, even if at times the trigger condition many not meet the strict definition in the rules.
After doing some digging, it seems it was told to be treated as a mana ability even though the rules says it shouldn't be. This is the last thing official that I could find.
Of course it's a mana ability. The FAQ even says so. Plus it's a mana ability on Magic Online. Turning Caged Sun into a land? What sort of ridiculousness is that? ;-P
For those that are actually curious, one of the following three things will happen:
1) I'll just decide Caged Sun is not a mana ability. No one will notice. (Not very likely)
2) I'll retool the definition of mana abilities so everything behaves sensibly. (More likely)
3) Nothing for the time being, and you should still treat Caged Sun as a mana ability. (Most likely, unless some something happens with number 2)
If I recall correctly, we got the official answer last time that every ability either is or isn't a mana ability; it can't be sometimes one and sometimes not one, depending on circumstance. Since Caged Sun's ability is clearly intended to be a triggered mana ability under normal conditions, it is always a triggered mana ability, even if at times the trigger condition many not meet the strict definition in the rules.
Can the "official answer" really be used in this case? Not only has the "official answer" been given awhile ago, the time difference during which it may have been changed, but the "official answer" is sought only in response to ambiguities or loopholes within the CR. This situation is an example of neither an ambiguity (as shown by the specificity of the wording of 605.1b indicated above) nor a loophole (as it's clearly not a rule that was never included due to unforeseen interactions).
If the "official answer" were to still stand, then certainly the opportunity for a rules update would have allowed for the rules to be edited to indicate that the answer still stands. The "official answer" given last time may have been given without close regard to 605.1b.
Since the CR is permissive in nature, anything that isn't stated in it is simply not true. Since there is no rule on whether an ability printed on an object is "always" or "never" something, then it is not the case that an ability can "always" or "never" be a mana ability. The "official answer" used to just say that it is the case that an ability can "always" or "never" be a mana ability, while it is to be obeyed due to authority, therefore seems to be an answer given for the sake of not bringing up the discussion again rather than a genuine attempt to fix the problem.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Ugh, Todd, that's not a solution. That's re-writing the card to do something at odds with perfectly computable text because we're murky on it's original ruled functionality. That's a terrible solution.
If the original ruled functionality was that it is considered a mana ability even though the rules say it isn't, well, then that's life. As you say, this just means you can't break the loop if you bend over backwards to set up an incredibly marginal corner case. Does it really matter? Is this REALLY a problem?
EDIT: And, if it is, remember that last time there was a problem with mana abilities they just changed the rules to accommodate the card. Rhystic Cavern, I believe.
a more sensible errata would be to insert an intervening if condition and shut the loop
though then it's Oracle text may generate a collective "what?" if they reprint it
Whenever a land's ability adds one or more mana of the chosen color to your mana pool, if the mana added wasn't added by this ability, add one additional mana of that color to your mana pool.
The problem with this then becomes the fact that each instance of the mana ability that triggers is a different object. The mana ability may resolve immediately and not use the stack, but the "intervening if" clause's condition will always be fulfilled because the ability is a new object each time it triggers. It doesn't matter if a triggered ability of the same permanent with the same trigger condition, "intervening if" clause, and effect has already triggered or resolved.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I would suggest locking it, as the question has been answered and explained through the rules twice now, and putting it any further off track would detract from the point of the thread.
The original topic was:
Now, when you tap the Caged Sun, you would add a green mana and the ability would trigger. When the ability resolves, it would add a green mana. However, while Caged Sun would trigger again, it is not triggered by activating a mana ability, so it would not fit the CR for a triggered mana ability, and could thus be responded to.
The response is that it WAS triggered by activating a mana ability, because this is a mana ability, so can not be responded to.
Thank you all for your input and responses, hopefully everything has been settled, and can otherwise be settled in a private discussion.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
The response is that it WAS triggered by activating a mana ability, because this is a mana ability, so can not be responded to.
The first time that Caged Sun triggers, sure, it was triggered due to an activated mana ability. Every instance of the trigger after that, though, is being triggered by the resolution of a triggered ability. A triggered ability that triggers from anything but an activated mana ability cannot be a mana ability; as Thought Criminal mentioned earlier, there is no reason that an ability cannot be sometimes defined as a mana ability and sometimes not, as appears to be the case here.
Edit: The topic has been posted to Judge Apps, in hopes of an [O]fficial answer.
The answer given in the forum thread is that yes, it will result in a draw, due to Caged Sun triggering indefinitely, and no one being able to respond to it since it is a mana ability. However, the local L2 disagreed, and essentially cited the following (with emphasis):
Now, when you tap the Caged Sun, you would add a green mana and the ability would trigger. When the ability resolves, it would add a green mana. However, while Caged Sun would trigger again, it is not triggered by activating a mana ability, so it would not fit the CR for a triggered mana ability, and could thus be responded to.
I'm looking for some confirmation, please.
So, it is a mana ability, and can't be responded to.
As an aside, making a new thread to dispute a thread that's already been answered a locked is a pretty big no-no. It was answered in the thread you linked to. No need to make another thread to answer it again.
Edit- To clarify, the ruling he posted states one thhing that a mana ability is.
The rule cited in OP doesn't disqualify anything from being a mana ability. It just proves one thing that a mana ability is. The rule i posted lays out actual criteria for a mana ability. You can see caged sun meets this criteria, and this is why it is a mana ability.
I'm gonna add in a second edit down here to let everyone know about the mystery of the disappearing original post. I swear, it was just there.
Seems like it would. It's a triggered ability, not a replacement effect, so it is entirely possible for it to trigger itself again.
How does MTGO handle this combination?
Thylakaleo, he is quoting the definition of a triggered mana ability not an activated mana ability(and if it doesn't meet all three of those things then it is not a triggered mana abiity), they follow different requirements, one difference is that they triggered from activating a mana abilty. In the case posted the first activation may qualify, but the 2nd and subsequent ones may not because they were caused by a triggered mana ability and you don't activate triggers. From the posted rule it seems that you could respond to the trigger after the first.
The only way you could perceive as having been triggered from activated was if the game could track that originally the source of everything was the activated mana ability. Which seems quite unlikely to be the case.
This may have been overlooked in the last thread, as it is easily possible no one saw that small oddity in the wording of the requirement of a triggered mana ability.
edit: also the only rule I found on similiar questions would be
2.2 Search for answers. Before asking a question, please check whether your question has been asked recently. If your question was already asked and answered earlier that day, asking the same question again is pointless. If you only find an answer from months ago, please make a new thread for your question, since the answer might have changed
regardless if the answer has changed or not, 2 years is long enough to ask again.
605.1a tells you what kind of ACTIVATED abilities are mana abilities.
605.1b tells you what kind of TRIGGERED abilities are mana abilities.
Caged Sun's ability is a triggered ability, so we look to 605.1b exclusively to answer the question: "Are you a mana ability?"
In order to qualify, it must (1) not have a target; and (2) have triggered from the ACTIVATION of a mana ability.
The first iteration of Caged Sun says, "Why yes, I am a mana ability. Me and Wild Growth are homies."
But then, Caged Sun triggers itself. The new triggered ability gets asked, "Are you a mana ability?"
In order to qualify, it must (1) not have a target; and (2) have triggered from the ACTIVATION of a mana ability.
The second iteration of Caged Sun did not trigger from an activated ability; it triggered from a triggered ability.
So it says, "No way, no how. I'm a cancerous rules growth and I'm spiraling rapidly out of control. I'm gonna go hang out on the stack and let you guys get priority to figure out a way to deal with me."
Is that right?
Of course it's a mana ability. The FAQ even says so. Plus it's a mana ability on Magic Online. Turning Caged Sun into a land? What sort of ridiculousness is that? ;-P
For those that are actually curious, one of the following three things will happen:
1) I'll just decide Caged Sun is not a mana ability. No one will notice. (Not very likely)
2) I'll retool the definition of mana abilities so everything behaves sensibly. (More likely)
3) Nothing for the time being, and you should still treat Caged Sun as a mana ability. (Most likely, unless some something happens with number 2)
it would seem 3 happened
Can the "official answer" really be used in this case? Not only has the "official answer" been given awhile ago, the time difference during which it may have been changed, but the "official answer" is sought only in response to ambiguities or loopholes within the CR. This situation is an example of neither an ambiguity (as shown by the specificity of the wording of 605.1b indicated above) nor a loophole (as it's clearly not a rule that was never included due to unforeseen interactions).
If the "official answer" were to still stand, then certainly the opportunity for a rules update would have allowed for the rules to be edited to indicate that the answer still stands. The "official answer" given last time may have been given without close regard to 605.1b.
Since the CR is permissive in nature, anything that isn't stated in it is simply not true. Since there is no rule on whether an ability printed on an object is "always" or "never" something, then it is not the case that an ability can "always" or "never" be a mana ability. The "official answer" used to just say that it is the case that an ability can "always" or "never" be a mana ability, while it is to be obeyed due to authority, therefore seems to be an answer given for the sake of not bringing up the discussion again rather than a genuine attempt to fix the problem.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
If the original ruled functionality was that it is considered a mana ability even though the rules say it isn't, well, then that's life. As you say, this just means you can't break the loop if you bend over backwards to set up an incredibly marginal corner case. Does it really matter? Is this REALLY a problem?
EDIT: And, if it is, remember that last time there was a problem with mana abilities they just changed the rules to accommodate the card. Rhystic Cavern, I believe.
The problem with this then becomes the fact that each instance of the mana ability that triggers is a different object. The mana ability may resolve immediately and not use the stack, but the "intervening if" clause's condition will always be fulfilled because the ability is a new object each time it triggers. It doesn't matter if a triggered ability of the same permanent with the same trigger condition, "intervening if" clause, and effect has already triggered or resolved.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I would suggest locking it, as the question has been answered and explained through the rules twice now, and putting it any further off track would detract from the point of the thread.
The original topic was:
The response is that it WAS triggered by activating a mana ability, because this is a mana ability, so can not be responded to.
Thank you all for your input and responses, hopefully everything has been settled, and can otherwise be settled in a private discussion.
The first time that Caged Sun triggers, sure, it was triggered due to an activated mana ability. Every instance of the trigger after that, though, is being triggered by the resolution of a triggered ability. A triggered ability that triggers from anything but an activated mana ability cannot be a mana ability; as Thought Criminal mentioned earlier, there is no reason that an ability cannot be sometimes defined as a mana ability and sometimes not, as appears to be the case here.
Edit: The topic has been posted to Judge Apps, in hopes of an [O]fficial answer.