Scenario: My oponent has Marath, Will of the Wild in play with, for example, 5 +1/+1 counters on him.
I have in my hand Darksteel Mutation and would like to enchant Marath to make him a 0/1.
Marath has an ability that lets him "fling" his counters (the second one listed on the card, I believe), so how would this play out? Obviously he has a chance to respond to my enchantment by flinging those counters, because creature abilities are at instant speed.
My opponent says that because he flinged all of his counters at me for 5 damage, this makes his Marath, Will of the Wild a 0/0 and he goes back to the commander zone. His reasoning is that I cannot enchant a 0/0 creature, because it's dead.
I was wondering how and when the game does a "check" to see if a creature is dead or not. Would my Darksteel Mutation be able to successfully enchant his Marath in this situation?
The game checks if creatures die (and some other things) whenever a player would get priority (these checks are called state-based actions). That happens very often; it happens after any spell/ability resolves and after any spell/ability is cast/activated, as well as at the beginning of each step/phase. After your opponent activates Marath's ability (removing the counters as a cost), the game will check state-based actions and see that Marath has 0 toughness, so it will be put into the graveyard (the command zone in this case).
Since Marath is no longer on the battlefield when your Darksteel Mutation resolves, your Darksteel Mutation is countered (its only target being illegal).
704. State-Based Actions
704.1. State-based actions are game actions that happen automatically whenever certain conditions (listed below) are met. State-based actions don’t use the stack.
704.1a Abilities that watch for a specified game state are triggered abilities, not state-based actions. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")
704.2. State-based actions are checked throughout the game and are not controlled by any player.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
704.4. Unlike triggered abilities, state-based actions pay no attention to what happens during the resolution of a spell or ability.
Example: A player controls a creature with the ability "This creature’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your hand" and casts a spell whose effect is "Discard your hand, then draw seven cards." The creature will temporarily have toughness 0 in the middle of the spell’s resolution but will be back up to toughness 7 when the spell finishes resolving. Thus the creature will survive when state-based actions are checked. In contrast, an ability that triggers when the player has no cards in hand goes on the stack after the spell resolves, because its trigger event happened during resolution.
704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:
704.5a If a player has 0 or less life, he or she loses the game.
704.5b If a player attempted to draw a card from a library with no cards in it since the last time state-based actions were checked, he or she loses the game.
704.5c If a player has ten or more poison counters, he or she loses the game. Ignore this rule in Two-Headed Giant games; see rule 704.5u instead.
704.5d If a token is phased out, or is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
704.5e If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist. If a copy of a card is in any zone other than the stack or the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
704.5i If a planeswalker has loyalty 0, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard.
704.5j If a player controls two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the "planeswalker uniqueness rule."
704.5k If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the "legend rule."
704.5m If two or more permanents have the supertype world, all except the one that has had the world supertype for the shortest amount of time are put into their owners’ graveyards. In the event of a tie for the shortest amount of time, all are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the "world rule."
704.5n If an Aura is attached to an illegal object or player, or is not attached to an object or player, that Aura is put into its owner’s graveyard.
704.5p If an Equipment or Fortification is attached to an illegal permanent, it becomes unattached from that permanent. It remains on the battlefield.
704.5q If a creature is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield. Similarly, if a permanent that’s neither an Aura, an Equipment, nor a Fortification is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield.
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
704.5s If a permanent with an ability that says it can’t have more than N counters of a certain kind on it has more than N counters of that kind on it, all but N of those counters are removed from it.
704.5t In a Two-Headed Giant game, if a team has 0 or less life, that team loses the game. See rule 810, "Two-Headed Giant Variant."
704.5u In a Two-Headed Giant game, if a team has fifteen or more poison counters, that team loses the game. See rule 810, "Two-Headed Giant Variant."
704.5v In a Commander game, a player that’s been dealt 21 or more combat damage by the same commander over the course of the game loses the game. See rule 903, "Commander."
704.5w In an Archenemy game, if a non-ongoing scheme card is face up in the command zone, and it isn’t the source of a triggered ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that scheme card is turned face down and put on the bottom of its owner’s scheme deck. See rule 904, "Archenemy."
704.5x In a Planechase game, if a phenomenon card is face up in the command zone, and it isn’t the source of a triggered ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, the planar controller planeswalks. See rule 901, "Planechase."
I was wondering how and when the game does a "check" to see if a creature is dead or not.
Such "checkings" are called State-Based Actions. SBAs are checked and performed right before a player would gain priority. Players gain priority after a spell or ability is put on the stack or resolves.
So, right after your opponent has activated Marath's ability for the last time (removing the last counter), before you could regain priority (to pass and let Marath's ability resolve), SBAs are checked, the game 'sees' a 0/0 creature on the battlefield, and so Marath is send to the graveyard. At this point your Mutation is still a spell on the stack, with Marath's ability on top of it.
You then gain priority, and let's say you pass; your opponent passes; Marath's ability resolves, doing whatever was chosen.
Then you regain priority again, and pass; your opponent also passes; Darksteel Mutation tries to resolve, but its target is gone so DM is countered and goes to the graveyard.
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I apologize in advance if I assume something completely wrong. I am still a very new player and slowly learning the more intricate rules.
Darksteel Mutation
Marath, Will of the Wild
Scenario: My oponent has Marath, Will of the Wild in play with, for example, 5 +1/+1 counters on him.
I have in my hand Darksteel Mutation and would like to enchant Marath to make him a 0/1.
Marath has an ability that lets him "fling" his counters (the second one listed on the card, I believe), so how would this play out? Obviously he has a chance to respond to my enchantment by flinging those counters, because creature abilities are at instant speed.
My opponent says that because he flinged all of his counters at me for 5 damage, this makes his Marath, Will of the Wild a 0/0 and he goes back to the commander zone. His reasoning is that I cannot enchant a 0/0 creature, because it's dead.
I was wondering how and when the game does a "check" to see if a creature is dead or not. Would my Darksteel Mutation be able to successfully enchant his Marath in this situation?
Thank you for your help,
MmmJellyfish :3
Since Marath is no longer on the battlefield when your Darksteel Mutation resolves, your Darksteel Mutation is countered (its only target being illegal).
704. State-Based Actions
704.1. State-based actions are game actions that happen automatically whenever certain conditions (listed below) are met. State-based actions don’t use the stack.
704.1a Abilities that watch for a specified game state are triggered abilities, not state-based actions. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")
704.2. State-based actions are checked throughout the game and are not controlled by any player.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
704.4. Unlike triggered abilities, state-based actions pay no attention to what happens during the resolution of a spell or ability.
Example: A player controls a creature with the ability "This creature’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your hand" and casts a spell whose effect is "Discard your hand, then draw seven cards." The creature will temporarily have toughness 0 in the middle of the spell’s resolution but will be back up to toughness 7 when the spell finishes resolving. Thus the creature will survive when state-based actions are checked. In contrast, an ability that triggers when the player has no cards in hand goes on the stack after the spell resolves, because its trigger event happened during resolution.
704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:
704.5a If a player has 0 or less life, he or she loses the game.
704.5b If a player attempted to draw a card from a library with no cards in it since the last time state-based actions were checked, he or she loses the game.
704.5c If a player has ten or more poison counters, he or she loses the game. Ignore this rule in Two-Headed Giant games; see rule 704.5u instead.
704.5d If a token is phased out, or is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
704.5e If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist. If a copy of a card is in any zone other than the stack or the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
704.5i If a planeswalker has loyalty 0, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard.
704.5j If a player controls two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the "planeswalker uniqueness rule."
704.5k If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the "legend rule."
704.5m If two or more permanents have the supertype world, all except the one that has had the world supertype for the shortest amount of time are put into their owners’ graveyards. In the event of a tie for the shortest amount of time, all are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the "world rule."
704.5n If an Aura is attached to an illegal object or player, or is not attached to an object or player, that Aura is put into its owner’s graveyard.
704.5p If an Equipment or Fortification is attached to an illegal permanent, it becomes unattached from that permanent. It remains on the battlefield.
704.5q If a creature is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield. Similarly, if a permanent that’s neither an Aura, an Equipment, nor a Fortification is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield.
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
704.5s If a permanent with an ability that says it can’t have more than N counters of a certain kind on it has more than N counters of that kind on it, all but N of those counters are removed from it.
704.5t In a Two-Headed Giant game, if a team has 0 or less life, that team loses the game. See rule 810, "Two-Headed Giant Variant."
704.5u In a Two-Headed Giant game, if a team has fifteen or more poison counters, that team loses the game. See rule 810, "Two-Headed Giant Variant."
704.5v In a Commander game, a player that’s been dealt 21 or more combat damage by the same commander over the course of the game loses the game. See rule 903, "Commander."
704.5w In an Archenemy game, if a non-ongoing scheme card is face up in the command zone, and it isn’t the source of a triggered ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that scheme card is turned face down and put on the bottom of its owner’s scheme deck. See rule 904, "Archenemy."
704.5x In a Planechase game, if a phenomenon card is face up in the command zone, and it isn’t the source of a triggered ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, the planar controller planeswalks. See rule 901, "Planechase."
Such "checkings" are called State-Based Actions. SBAs are checked and performed right before a player would gain priority. Players gain priority after a spell or ability is put on the stack or resolves.
So, right after your opponent has activated Marath's ability for the last time (removing the last counter), before you could regain priority (to pass and let Marath's ability resolve), SBAs are checked, the game 'sees' a 0/0 creature on the battlefield, and so Marath is send to the graveyard. At this point your Mutation is still a spell on the stack, with Marath's ability on top of it.
You then gain priority, and let's say you pass; your opponent passes; Marath's ability resolves, doing whatever was chosen.
Then you regain priority again, and pass; your opponent also passes; Darksteel Mutation tries to resolve, but its target is gone so DM is countered and goes to the graveyard.