So how does Xenagos, God of Revels ability work with variable power creatures?
example Xenagos, God of Revels and Malignus are on the board. Highest life total among opponents is 40 (EDH). So Malignus is a 20/20.
Goto combat.
Xenagos ability triggers, targeting Malignus. Everyone lets it resolve.
Questions.
1. Is Malignus a 40/40 or still a 20/20 since his card reads that his power and toughness are always equal to the highest lifetotal?
2. If he is a 40/40 (yes to question 1) and the opponent with 40 life changes his life total does this change Malignus power and toughness and do away with Xenagos +x/+x?
3. If someone turns Malignus into a 1/1 frog does he still get the +20/+20 from Xenagos, or does he just become a +1/+1 frog?
I'm sure this is an easy question, just a lot of my play group disagrees on what happens.
1) he will be a 40/40. This is because of layers. when determining p/t of a creature we apply things in a certain order and the p/t setting from Malignus is applied before the xenagos pump.
2) the xenagos buff is locked in when it resolves so in your case it would still be a plus +20/+20 (assuming the life change happens after xenagos ability resolves), though malignus base will still change. If highest went down to 30 Malignus would be a 35 (15/15 with +20/+20 from xenagos).
3) If they respond to the xenagos trigger he will be a 2/2 frog when the trigger resolves, if they do it after the trigger resolves then it would be a 21/21 frog (assuming no other effects)
The X on Xenagos's ability uses the creature's current power at the moment the ability is resolving. The bonus doesn't change continuously (otherwise it would always become infinite, because it is changing the creature's power itself!).
Malignus's ability defines only the creature's "base" power and toughness, so to speak. It "replaces" what is normally defined by a number printed on the card itself (where in Malignus only a "*" is present). Just like a 3/3 gains +3/+3 to become a 6/6 even though it still says "3" on the card itself, Malignus will be a 40/40 after Xenagos's ability has resolve - you can see it as being a 20/20 with a +20/+20 temporary effect.
1. It will be 40/40.
2. The value of the +X/+X won't change, but the 'base' stats it is applied over does. So, for example, if the highest life total is now a 30, Malignus would become a 35/35 (15/15 "base" plus +20/+20 from Xenagos's ability).
3. Depends on when the effect happens. If it happens before Xenagos's ability resolves, Xenagos's ability will see only a 1/1 and will give it +1/+1, so you get a 2/2 frog. Even if Malignus stops being a frog later, it will ba a 21/21 (20/20 with +1/+1).
If the frog effect happens after Xenagos's ability has resolved, the effect is already set up as +20/+20. So it would become a 21/21 frog (1/1 with +20/+20)
Okay so 1 and 2 are what we thought.
3 is still the one that we can't agree on because we feel we've seen plenty of people play differently in similar situations that don't involve malignus. Such as
I have a Terastodon on the board
I go to combat, declare Terastodon as attacker
opponent assigns no blockers
I cast Giant Growth (+4/+4 until end of turn, just a non variable version of Xenagos' ability)
Opponent lets it resolve
I pass priority before damage
Opponent cast Turn To Frog and only 1 damage gets dealt
so either several of us have seen this done in error multiple times or we're missing why Xenago's would work differently in this situation.
You have seen that done in error multiple times then unfortunately.
The Terastodon frog will will deal 4 damage in combat.
The relevant rules are below.
613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)
613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121, “Counters.”
613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature’s power.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives the creature +5/+0. Its “unswitched” power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual power and toughness is 4/6.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. If the +0/+1 effect ends before the switch effect ends, the creature becomes 3/1.
Essentially the effect of turn to frog is applied in Layer 7B but as it is still the same game object that was targeted by giant growth it will still be given +3/+3 layer 7c until the current turn ends. So it will end up as a 4/4 creature.
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Note that this is due to the layers system, and the +X/+X will always win because it is in a higher layer (Giant Growth works this way too). There are other layers unrelated to p/t, but the relevant stuff:
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)
613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but dont set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121, "Counters."
613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creatures power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creatures toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creatures power.
Yes, this was done in error. The Giant Growth effect still applies "over" the 1/1 of the frog just like it applied "over" the 9/9 of the elephant.
By the way, Giant Growth gives +3/+3. So the now frog Terastodon does 4 damage (1/1 +3/+3 = 4/4).
"Becomes X/X" and "is X/X" effects such as Turn to Frog apply on a different "layer" than "+X/+X" and "-X/-X" effects such as Giant Growth. It doesn't matter the order they are applied.
The best way to think about them is considering effects such as Turn to Frog as "overwritting" what is printed on the card. You get Terastodon, erase the 9/9 on the p/t box, and write 1/1 on that place. The +3/+3 of Giant Growth still exists, now changing this value just like it changed the previous one, meaning Terastodon is a 4/4 for this turn.
example
Xenagos, God of Revels and Malignus are on the board. Highest life total among opponents is 40 (EDH). So Malignus is a 20/20.
Goto combat.
Xenagos ability triggers, targeting Malignus. Everyone lets it resolve.
Questions.
1. Is Malignus a 40/40 or still a 20/20 since his card reads that his power and toughness are always equal to the highest lifetotal?
2. If he is a 40/40 (yes to question 1) and the opponent with 40 life changes his life total does this change Malignus power and toughness and do away with Xenagos +x/+x?
3. If someone turns Malignus into a 1/1 frog does he still get the +20/+20 from Xenagos, or does he just become a +1/+1 frog?
I'm sure this is an easy question, just a lot of my play group disagrees on what happens.
Thanks
Munch
2) the xenagos buff is locked in when it resolves so in your case it would still be a plus +20/+20 (assuming the life change happens after xenagos ability resolves), though malignus base will still change. If highest went down to 30 Malignus would be a 35 (15/15 with +20/+20 from xenagos).
3) If they respond to the xenagos trigger he will be a 2/2 frog when the trigger resolves, if they do it after the trigger resolves then it would be a 21/21 frog (assuming no other effects)
Malignus's ability defines only the creature's "base" power and toughness, so to speak. It "replaces" what is normally defined by a number printed on the card itself (where in Malignus only a "*" is present). Just like a 3/3 gains +3/+3 to become a 6/6 even though it still says "3" on the card itself, Malignus will be a 40/40 after Xenagos's ability has resolve - you can see it as being a 20/20 with a +20/+20 temporary effect.
1. It will be 40/40.
2. The value of the +X/+X won't change, but the 'base' stats it is applied over does. So, for example, if the highest life total is now a 30, Malignus would become a 35/35 (15/15 "base" plus +20/+20 from Xenagos's ability).
3. Depends on when the effect happens. If it happens before Xenagos's ability resolves, Xenagos's ability will see only a 1/1 and will give it +1/+1, so you get a 2/2 frog. Even if Malignus stops being a frog later, it will ba a 21/21 (20/20 with +1/+1).
If the frog effect happens after Xenagos's ability has resolved, the effect is already set up as +20/+20. So it would become a 21/21 frog (1/1 with +20/+20)
3 is still the one that we can't agree on because we feel we've seen plenty of people play differently in similar situations that don't involve malignus. Such as
I have a Terastodon on the board
I go to combat, declare Terastodon as attacker
opponent assigns no blockers
I cast Giant Growth (+4/+4 until end of turn, just a non variable version of Xenagos' ability)
Opponent lets it resolve
I pass priority before damage
Opponent cast Turn To Frog and only 1 damage gets dealt
so either several of us have seen this done in error multiple times or we're missing why Xenago's would work differently in this situation.
The Terastodon frog will will deal 4 damage in combat.
The relevant rules are below.
613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121, “Counters.”
613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature’s power.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives the creature +5/+0. Its “unswitched” power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual power and toughness is 4/6.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. If the +0/+1 effect ends before the switch effect ends, the creature becomes 3/1.
Essentially the effect of turn to frog is applied in Layer 7B but as it is still the same game object that was targeted by giant growth it will still be given +3/+3 layer 7c until the current turn ends. So it will end up as a 4/4 creature.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
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Note that this is due to the layers system, and the +X/+X will always win because it is in a higher layer (Giant Growth works this way too). There are other layers unrelated to p/t, but the relevant stuff:
Turn to Frog applies in layer 7b, and Giant Growth/Xenagos, God of Revels applies in 7c, so the +X/+X effect will always "win".
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By the way, Giant Growth gives +3/+3. So the now frog Terastodon does 4 damage (1/1 +3/+3 = 4/4).
"Becomes X/X" and "is X/X" effects such as Turn to Frog apply on a different "layer" than "+X/+X" and "-X/-X" effects such as Giant Growth. It doesn't matter the order they are applied.
The best way to think about them is considering effects such as Turn to Frog as "overwritting" what is printed on the card. You get Terastodon, erase the 9/9 on the p/t box, and write 1/1 on that place. The +3/+3 of Giant Growth still exists, now changing this value just like it changed the previous one, meaning Terastodon is a 4/4 for this turn.
Thank you all for your quick answers as always.!