I have a question on something confusing to me regarding Possibility Storm and Knowledge Pool:
2 players out of a 3+ player game have Possibility Storm and Knowledge Pool on each of their sides of the field.
How does this resolve when any turn or non-turn player casts spells? As far as I know, the turn player with a Storm and Pool are put on the stack first before the others, right?
What about if one of any those players (either the controller or non-controllers of Storm and Pool) have Hive Mind or Eye of the Storm on the field at the same time?
Basically, the way this will work is that whoever controls the abilities (In almost every case the player casting the spell) gets to order them on the stack, and let them resolve. No matter what, the spell will be exiled.
Hive mind will have no effect on other players. Those players just get copies of the spells, they don't get to actually cast them. So we can set that confusion to the side. (When a player casts a spell however, even if another effect exiles it, all the other players will get to copy it.)
If Eye of the Storm is out, and you order that one on top of the stack, then the spell will count as being exiled with eye of the storm's effect. But if you order anything else on top, then that spell will not count as being exiled by Eye of the Storm, so you won't get to recast that spell every time you cast another spell.
Possibility storm and Knowledge pool only look for the spell to be exiled. Since exile is a public zone, they will look for the spell to be exiled, then see it was exiled, and not care how it ended up there. Just the fact that it got there, and is visible in that public zone, so you can get the effect of the possibility storms and the knowledge pools at the same time. If you do get those two effects, then you will cast the spell, and depending on how you order them, you can either cast one of the spells exiled with knowledge pool, then resolve the effect of possibility storm (For the card originally cast. Not what you cast through possibility storm. The spell you cast through the knowledge pool won't get the possibility storm effect, but it will get the Hivemind or eye of the storm effect if it is instant or sorcery. This is because possibility storm requires casting from the hand, but the other only require it to be an instant or sorcery.)
*Phew*
So, i hope this all has helped. It is rather convoluted, so if anything is unclear or i left anything out, feel free to ask more questions.
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Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
Wait, so the player casting, not the controller of Possibility Storm/Knowledge Pool, orders the effect of Storm/Pool on the stack? I read in a judge's blog saying that the controller of the storm and pool orders it, not the person casting.
I also read somewhere that when you want Storm to resolve, Knowledge Pool's effect won't go through and vice-versa. For example, when a player casts a card and the controller of Storm/Pool puts Storm at the top of the stack, the card casted won't be exiled by knowledge pool (so it won't be in the pool), and if the controller of Storm/Pool puts the Pool at the top of the stack, the card casted goes into the pool and you cast something else in the pool rather than casting something that you exiled from the top of the deck. Or do both effects have to go through when one of them has resolved?
If you have knowledge pool resolve first then you will get a card from the pool and your deck, because due to possibility storms wording it doesn't care if the spell is actually exiled to it.
But if you have Storm resolve first then that player will only get a card from their deck, as knowledge pool says you can only cast the spell if the ability actually did the exiling (which it didn't as the spell was no longer there when it tried to).
You are correct in your hearing that whoever controls the knowledge pool/storm (assuming both are controlled by same person) is the one who decides the order on the stack. Note if they are different than it goes by APNAP order on to the stack and resolves in reverse.
Possibility Storm however doesn't care about the reason for the card to be exiled.
Note Storm doesn't care if the card is exiled at all, it could be bounced to their hand or shuffled into their library.
Basically, the way this will work is that whoever controls the abilities (In almost every case the player casting the spell) gets to order them on the stack, and let them resolve. No matter what, the spell will be exiled.
Wait, so the player casting, not the controller of Possibility Storm/Knowledge Pool, orders the effect of Storm/Pool on the stack? I read in a judge's blog saying that the controller of the storm and pool orders it, not the person casting.
What you read is correct. A triggered ability is controlled by the person who controlls the card which triggered them and if more than one triggered ability from one player goes on the stack that player decides which goes first. If triggered abilities of muliple players go on the stack, the active player puts his triggers on the stack first, than the triggered abilities of the player to his left and so on.
These guys are both wrong.
A triggered ability (other than a delayed triggered ability) is controlled by the player who controlled its source when the ability triggered. If it had no controller, instead the owner of the object controls the ability.
If multiple triggered abilities would be put on the stack at the same time, they are placed in Active Player, Non-Active Player order (APNAP for short), as determined by who controls them. If a player controls multiple triggers that would be put on the stack at the same time, that player chooses the order.
Rules:
112.8. The controller of an activated ability on the stack is the player who activated it. The controller of
a triggered ability on the stack (other than a delayed triggered ability) is the player who controlled the ability’s source when it triggered, or, if it had no controller, the player who owned the ability’s source when it triggered. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.
112.7. The source of an ability is the object that generated it. The source of an activated ability on the
stack is the object whose ability was activated. The source of a triggered ability (other than a delayed triggered ability) on the stack, or one that has triggered and is waiting to be put on the stack, is the object whose ability triggered. To determine the source of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.
Basically, the way this will work is that whoever controls the abilities (In almost every case the player casting the spell) gets to order them on the stack, and let them resolve. No matter what, the spell will be exiled.
These guys are both wrong.
A triggered ability (other than a delayed triggered ability) is controlled by the player who controlled its source when the ability triggered. If it had no controller, instead the owner of the object controls the ability.
If multiple triggered abilities would be put on the stack at the same time, they are placed in Active Player, Non-Active Player order (APNAP for short), as determined by who controls them. If a player controls multiple triggers that would be put on the stack at the same time, that player chooses the order.
Rules:
112.8. The controller of an activated ability on the stack is the player who activated it. The controller of
a triggered ability on the stack (other than a delayed triggered ability) is the player who controlled the ability’s source when it triggered, or, if it had no controller, the player who owned the ability’s source when it triggered. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.
112.7. The source of an ability is the object that generated it. The source of an activated ability on the
stack is the object whose ability was activated. The source of a triggered ability (other than a delayed triggered ability) on the stack, or one that has triggered and is waiting to be put on the stack, is the object whose ability triggered. To determine the source of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.
What you said is what i meant. If one player has all three of knowledge pool, Possibility storm, and Eye of the storm, then when they cast a spell, they will control all three of this triggers and get to order them on the stack. If they are the active player, then all three of their triggers will go on the stack (Because they go at the same time) In the order that player wants them to, then the other player's possibility storm will go on the stack. If they are not the active player, then the active player's possibility storm and other triggers like that will go on the stack, then the non active players in turn order, and the stack resolves top down.
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Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
The point is that it doesn't matter who casts the spell, what matters is who controls the storm/pool.
Your statement tied the caster of the spell to the control of the trigger when they are completely independent.
Especially pertinent is that in a multiplayer game, it is more likely than not that the player casting the spell will not be the ability's controller.
Even though you meant what I said, the OP was clearly confused.
So this is what I understood from the explanations above (but concerning only Storm and Pool, not including Eye of the Storm). If anyone could please make any corrections to the scenarios if what I said is incorrect.
Scenario A (only player A has a storm and pool):
If player A lets Knowledge Pool resolve first, then person casting swaps a card from the pool and casts it, then Possibility Storm triggers and makes the casting player to cast another card from the top of his/her deck, essentially netting the player casting a spell 2 different cards (one from the pool and one from the top of the deck; the original casted card is returned to the bottom of the library).
If player A lets the storm resolve first, then the person casting a spell casts a card from the top of his/her deck, and then Knowledge Pool doesn't go through.
Scenario B (player A has both and player B has storm):
1. Player A is the turn player: pool and storm go on the stack (either order), then the non-active player that owns a storm goes on the stack. NAP's storm resolves first, making the player casting to cast a card from the top of his/her deck. Next, pool tries to resolve, but doesn't go through. Basically, as long as any Possibility Storm is on top of Knowledge Pool on the stack resolves first, Knowledge Pool will not go through. (However, after this, does Player A's Possibility Storm make the player casting a spell get ANOTHER card from the top of the deck or does the card casted with the first trigger of the NAP's storm get replaced? I'm thinking it gets another card.)
2. Player A is not the turn player: Basically the same as above but Player A's storm resolves before player B's.
Scenario C (player A has both and player B has pool):
1. Player A is the turn player and wants to resolve pool first: pool and storm go on the stack, then the non-active player that owns pool goes on the stack. The NAP's pool resolves first, making the player casting to swap the card being cast with another card from the pool owned by Player B. After this, Player A's pool tries to resolve but doesn't see the original card being casted anymore, so it doesn't go through. Then storm resolves last, and the player casting a spell casts a card from the top of his/her deck.
2. Player A is the turn player and wants to resolve storm first: Same as above except that when storm resolves, it nullifies the effect of pool controlled by Player A.
3. Player A is not the turn player: Player B's pool goes on the stack first, then Player A puts his/her own pool and storm on the stack. If Player A's pool resolves first, then the person casting a spell swaps a card with the pool controlled by Player A. If Player A's storm resolves first, then the person casting a spell casts a card from the top of his/her library. Afterwards, both Knowledge Pools won't work.
Scenario D (both players have storm and pool on their sides of the field):
Any Knowledge Pools under Possibility Storm on the stack will not resolve no matter who controls them. (Still unsure if the two different Possibility Storms allow 2 different cards to be casted or not).
Are these correct? Sorry for the long post.
Edit: I read somewhere that multiple instances of PStorm does make you cast from the top of the library the same number of times. So 2 Possibility Storms (regardless of who controls them) would trigger and allow the player casting a card to cast 2 cards of the same type from the top of the deck.
2 players out of a 3+ player game have Possibility Storm and Knowledge Pool on each of their sides of the field.
How does this resolve when any turn or non-turn player casts spells? As far as I know, the turn player with a Storm and Pool are put on the stack first before the others, right?
What about if one of any those players (either the controller or non-controllers of Storm and Pool) have Hive Mind or Eye of the Storm on the field at the same time?
Hive mind will have no effect on other players. Those players just get copies of the spells, they don't get to actually cast them. So we can set that confusion to the side. (When a player casts a spell however, even if another effect exiles it, all the other players will get to copy it.)
If Eye of the Storm is out, and you order that one on top of the stack, then the spell will count as being exiled with eye of the storm's effect. But if you order anything else on top, then that spell will not count as being exiled by Eye of the Storm, so you won't get to recast that spell every time you cast another spell.
Possibility storm and Knowledge pool only look for the spell to be exiled. Since exile is a public zone, they will look for the spell to be exiled, then see it was exiled, and not care how it ended up there. Just the fact that it got there, and is visible in that public zone, so you can get the effect of the possibility storms and the knowledge pools at the same time. If you do get those two effects, then you will cast the spell, and depending on how you order them, you can either cast one of the spells exiled with knowledge pool, then resolve the effect of possibility storm (For the card originally cast. Not what you cast through possibility storm. The spell you cast through the knowledge pool won't get the possibility storm effect, but it will get the Hivemind or eye of the storm effect if it is instant or sorcery. This is because possibility storm requires casting from the hand, but the other only require it to be an instant or sorcery.)
*Phew*
So, i hope this all has helped. It is rather convoluted, so if anything is unclear or i left anything out, feel free to ask more questions.
I also read somewhere that when you want Storm to resolve, Knowledge Pool's effect won't go through and vice-versa. For example, when a player casts a card and the controller of Storm/Pool puts Storm at the top of the stack, the card casted won't be exiled by knowledge pool (so it won't be in the pool), and if the controller of Storm/Pool puts the Pool at the top of the stack, the card casted goes into the pool and you cast something else in the pool rather than casting something that you exiled from the top of the deck. Or do both effects have to go through when one of them has resolved?
But if you have Storm resolve first then that player will only get a card from their deck, as knowledge pool says you can only cast the spell if the ability actually did the exiling (which it didn't as the spell was no longer there when it tried to).
You are correct in your hearing that whoever controls the knowledge pool/storm (assuming both are controlled by same person) is the one who decides the order on the stack. Note if they are different than it goes by APNAP order on to the stack and resolves in reverse.
Note Storm doesn't care if the card is exiled at all, it could be bounced to their hand or shuffled into their library.
These guys are both wrong.
A triggered ability (other than a delayed triggered ability) is controlled by the player who controlled its source when the ability triggered. If it had no controller, instead the owner of the object controls the ability.
If multiple triggered abilities would be put on the stack at the same time, they are placed in Active Player, Non-Active Player order (APNAP for short), as determined by who controls them. If a player controls multiple triggers that would be put on the stack at the same time, that player chooses the order.
Rules:
What you said is what i meant. If one player has all three of knowledge pool, Possibility storm, and Eye of the storm, then when they cast a spell, they will control all three of this triggers and get to order them on the stack. If they are the active player, then all three of their triggers will go on the stack (Because they go at the same time) In the order that player wants them to, then the other player's possibility storm will go on the stack. If they are not the active player, then the active player's possibility storm and other triggers like that will go on the stack, then the non active players in turn order, and the stack resolves top down.
Your statement tied the caster of the spell to the control of the trigger when they are completely independent.
Especially pertinent is that in a multiplayer game, it is more likely than not that the player casting the spell will not be the ability's controller.
Even though you meant what I said, the OP was clearly confused.
Scenario A (only player A has a storm and pool):
If player A lets Knowledge Pool resolve first, then person casting swaps a card from the pool and casts it, then Possibility Storm triggers and makes the casting player to cast another card from the top of his/her deck, essentially netting the player casting a spell 2 different cards (one from the pool and one from the top of the deck; the original casted card is returned to the bottom of the library).
If player A lets the storm resolve first, then the person casting a spell casts a card from the top of his/her deck, and then Knowledge Pool doesn't go through.
Scenario B (player A has both and player B has storm):
1. Player A is the turn player: pool and storm go on the stack (either order), then the non-active player that owns a storm goes on the stack. NAP's storm resolves first, making the player casting to cast a card from the top of his/her deck. Next, pool tries to resolve, but doesn't go through. Basically, as long as any Possibility Storm is on top of Knowledge Pool on the stack resolves first, Knowledge Pool will not go through.
(However, after this, does Player A's Possibility Storm make the player casting a spell get ANOTHER card from the top of the deck or does the card casted with the first trigger of the NAP's storm get replaced? I'm thinking it gets another card.)2. Player A is not the turn player: Basically the same as above but Player A's storm resolves before player B's.
Scenario C (player A has both and player B has pool):
1. Player A is the turn player and wants to resolve pool first: pool and storm go on the stack, then the non-active player that owns pool goes on the stack. The NAP's pool resolves first, making the player casting to swap the card being cast with another card from the pool owned by Player B. After this, Player A's pool tries to resolve but doesn't see the original card being casted anymore, so it doesn't go through. Then storm resolves last, and the player casting a spell casts a card from the top of his/her deck.
2. Player A is the turn player and wants to resolve storm first: Same as above except that when storm resolves, it nullifies the effect of pool controlled by Player A.
3. Player A is not the turn player: Player B's pool goes on the stack first, then Player A puts his/her own pool and storm on the stack. If Player A's pool resolves first, then the person casting a spell swaps a card with the pool controlled by Player A. If Player A's storm resolves first, then the person casting a spell casts a card from the top of his/her library. Afterwards, both Knowledge Pools won't work.
Scenario D (both players have storm and pool on their sides of the field):
Any Knowledge Pools under Possibility Storm on the stack will not resolve no matter who controls them.
(Still unsure if the two different Possibility Storms allow 2 different cards to be casted or not).Are these correct? Sorry for the long post.
Edit: I read somewhere that multiple instances of PStorm does make you cast from the top of the library the same number of times. So 2 Possibility Storms (regardless of who controls them) would trigger and allow the player casting a card to cast 2 cards of the same type from the top of the deck.