What is the best way to get my opponent to announce passing priority to move from upkeep into draw or draw into main 1? I'm thinking about using Seek after a Sensei's Divining Top during upkeep, but I don't want to make it obvious that I'm going to cast something. But by the time he or she has drawn the card, it has touched his or her hand and things might get confusing.
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Yeah, its the same as wanting to tap down potential attackers by saying "Please let me know when you want to move to the attack step." You'll give away the potential for a trick, but at least the sequencing will be clear.
Well normally you can respond to them drawing a card, normally a competitive opponent will announce the draw step anyway even if its just "draw" by word.
Same deal for attackers, normally a player can just say "attack ?" and the opponent gets his second of answering, or at least "wait a second".
Not much reason in magic to use many words, if all can be done with so less equally efficient.
Words commonly used:
"Untap"
"Upkeep"
"Draw"
"Land"
"Attack"
"End of turn"
"Discard" (>7 cards)
Pretty much covers it all when you change a phase that potentially matters. If someone wants to do a really fancy action, like "end of combat", they should respond or just use the hand to signal "stop/wait".
I see it as a little different from attacking without announcing your intention of moving to the attack phase. When your opponent attacks, you can force them to "rewind." But is it the same with moving from draw to main? It seems like the burden would be on me to announce something because it is commonplace for both players to pass priority on an empty stack in the draw step.
For example, I want to flash in a Tidehollow Sculler at the end of his draw step. He draws, then soon after announces Wrath of God, which heavily ruins my chances of winning. It seems like I wouldn't be able to force him to rewind to un-casting the Wrath before I Tidehollow Sculler, since he has revealed critical information and the burden was on me to say something. The judges may side with my opponent.
A specific instance of this "burden" problem comes to mind: I want to cast Glimpse the Sun God after I attack to trigger Heroic on my own creature. If I declare attackers without passing priority and he makes his blocks, I may not be able to go back and tap his blockers, since he has revealed critical information and the burden was on me to declare that I was retaining priority.
Can you guys clarify on this matter some more please? Thank you.
I've definitely heard the phrase "During your upkeep" said before to make sure an opponent doesn't jump the gun to the next phase where such confusion could happen.
I think I've even had someone play a silence during my upkeep once which I am not sure was legal. Thoughts?
I've definitely heard the phrase "During your upkeep" said before to make sure an opponent doesn't jump the gun to the next phase where such confusion could happen.
I think I've even had someone play a silence during my upkeep once which I am not sure was legal. Thoughts?
he sure can play instants during your upkeep, why do you think it would be illegal?
I've definitely heard the phrase "During your upkeep" said before to make sure an opponent doesn't jump the gun to the next phase where such confusion could happen.
I think I've even had someone play a silence during my upkeep once which I am not sure was legal. Thoughts?
Your opponent can definitely silence you during your upkeep. It doesn't matter whether or not you pass priority, because you can only cast instants and cards with flash during the upkeep phase. If you force your opponent to "rewind" so you cast a spell before they get priority, they can respond with an instant anyways. Bottom line: yes
If you want to play Tidehollow Sculler (or more likely Vendillion Clique) during your opponent's draw step, you have a number of options.
One is to say "Stop on your draw step next turn" beforehand. Of course, this gives up information, unless you sometimes do it as a bluff, so you may not be okay with that.
Another is to wait for your opponent to draw a card, and then quickly say "Stop. I may have an effect during your draw step -- do I have priority?" (Or, for short, "During your draw step...".) If your opponent rushes on to the main phase and doesn't give you time to stop him, you have every right to say "Hold on, I had an effect during your draw step." If he peeled Wrath of God and immediately slammed it on the table, it's his fault that he revealed information, not yours. He rushed you and now he has to pay the price.
Of course he may decide to lie to the judge and say he waited quite a while before slamming the wrath, but almost any situation can go badly for you if your opponent gets away with lying to the judge.
For your question about attack step, if your opponent quickly starts declaring blockers and you still have an effect, say "Wait! It's still the declare attackers step and I have an effect." Alternatively, as you declare attackers, say, "I may have an effect during my declare attackers step, so hold on." Again, if your opponent tries to rush you, it's his fault that he gives up information, not yours.
This situation is easier than the last one since, if you're attacking, you have priority first in the declare attackers step. So just use your priority right away, and there shouldn't be any problems.
In my experience most judges will get both of these situations right most of the time. When you think there may be an issue, it never hurts to remind your opponent at the beginning of the game that you might occasionally make plays at unusual times and that it would be nice if he didn't rush you.
EDIT: If you need some support, note that the Tournament Rules has a section on shortcuts. Notably absent is any mention of "Players pass priority during draw steps" as a standard shortcut. The players could agree to use that as a shortcut, but unless they do so agree, it's not being used.
If you know in advance that you want to cast the spell (and you should), I would simply say "upkeep?" or "draw step" when I see my opponent respectively untapping their lands or reaching for their card. Even if it's true that your opponent technically has priority, it is very uncommon to cast anything during these steps (on his own turn).
To come back to your original question of opponent using the divining top on his upkeep, it should be fair to expect him to make a distinction between the top ability and the draw step (such as him putting all the cards back and saying 'draw?'). If you catch him rushing to draw his card, tell him politely that he should give you time to acknowledge the move to draw phase, regardless of whether you have an effect to play.
I've definitely heard the phrase "During your upkeep" said before to make sure an opponent doesn't jump the gun to the next phase where such confusion could happen.
I think I've even had someone play a silence during my upkeep once which I am not sure was legal. Thoughts?
Your opponent can definitely silence you during your upkeep. It doesn't matter whether or not you pass priority, because you can only cast instants and cards with flash during the upkeep phase. If you force your opponent to "rewind" so you cast a spell before they get priority, they can respond with an instant anyways. Bottom line: yes
Okay good, cause I've also done it, haha. Not exactly the nicest thing to do I'll admit.
Your opponent does not have priority to cast Silence willy-nilly during your upkeep. They get priority to do so when you give them priority. This can occur when they put something on the stack and do not retain priority, or when you announce the end of your upkeep step and try to move to the next step.
So, once their upkeep arrives, they can cast whatever they like. You can't get "in front" of them with Silence.
However, once they make an indication they are moving to draw - such as reaching for their library or saying "draw" - you should stop them and tell them you have an ability at the end of the upkeep step. At that point, you can put Silence on the stack.
In practice though, Priority doesn't matter much in the case of Silence. You can still cast instants in response, and you couldn't cast anything else during your upkeep anyway.
Overall players know the "commonly" played cards in a format and should act accordingly.
This means, if the opponent actual has Vendilion Clique in his deck and 1UU open its not really smart to draw a card right away.
The least thing to ask for is an opponent that announces his draw.
As said, even if its just "Untap, Draw ?" , the opponent has its tiny window to say "stop" , if they do not, you draw, and they missed the chance.
If you say nothing and just draw the card, everyone will side with the opponent, as you failed to communicate with the opponent, which is as little as "draw ..." , 1 word, nothing more.
Same goes for combat, if you want to attack and you see the opponent has mana, its in your best interest to give a quick "combat ?" and get the yes/no from the opponent. If a player just rushes ahead and taps attackers, the rewind will happen (if its a timely manner, not like they tap the attackers and the opponent still thinks for 30 seconds, then says "oh wait i wanted to play something before you attack" , then its quite obvisiously too late).
If an opponent is tapped out, its often totally ok to not ask for combat/draw and the like, as you quite likely do not have to fear anything to happen.
If its legacy or you can expect wacky cards, asking doesnt hurt and costs pretty much no time.
Its good habbit to get used to the tiny words, as they let you avoid a lot of otherwise bad communication / or no communcation at all.
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Same deal for attackers, normally a player can just say "attack ?" and the opponent gets his second of answering, or at least "wait a second".
Not much reason in magic to use many words, if all can be done with so less equally efficient.
Words commonly used:
"Untap"
"Upkeep"
"Draw"
"Land"
"Attack"
"End of turn"
"Discard" (>7 cards)
Pretty much covers it all when you change a phase that potentially matters. If someone wants to do a really fancy action, like "end of combat", they should respond or just use the hand to signal "stop/wait".
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For example, I want to flash in a Tidehollow Sculler at the end of his draw step. He draws, then soon after announces Wrath of God, which heavily ruins my chances of winning. It seems like I wouldn't be able to force him to rewind to un-casting the Wrath before I Tidehollow Sculler, since he has revealed critical information and the burden was on me to say something. The judges may side with my opponent.
A specific instance of this "burden" problem comes to mind: I want to cast Glimpse the Sun God after I attack to trigger Heroic on my own creature. If I declare attackers without passing priority and he makes his blocks, I may not be able to go back and tap his blockers, since he has revealed critical information and the burden was on me to declare that I was retaining priority.
Can you guys clarify on this matter some more please? Thank you.
I think I've even had someone play a silence during my upkeep once which I am not sure was legal. Thoughts?
he sure can play instants during your upkeep, why do you think it would be illegal?
Your opponent can definitely silence you during your upkeep. It doesn't matter whether or not you pass priority, because you can only cast instants and cards with flash during the upkeep phase. If you force your opponent to "rewind" so you cast a spell before they get priority, they can respond with an instant anyways. Bottom line: yes
One is to say "Stop on your draw step next turn" beforehand. Of course, this gives up information, unless you sometimes do it as a bluff, so you may not be okay with that.
Another is to wait for your opponent to draw a card, and then quickly say "Stop. I may have an effect during your draw step -- do I have priority?" (Or, for short, "During your draw step...".) If your opponent rushes on to the main phase and doesn't give you time to stop him, you have every right to say "Hold on, I had an effect during your draw step." If he peeled Wrath of God and immediately slammed it on the table, it's his fault that he revealed information, not yours. He rushed you and now he has to pay the price.
Of course he may decide to lie to the judge and say he waited quite a while before slamming the wrath, but almost any situation can go badly for you if your opponent gets away with lying to the judge.
For your question about attack step, if your opponent quickly starts declaring blockers and you still have an effect, say "Wait! It's still the declare attackers step and I have an effect." Alternatively, as you declare attackers, say, "I may have an effect during my declare attackers step, so hold on." Again, if your opponent tries to rush you, it's his fault that he gives up information, not yours.
This situation is easier than the last one since, if you're attacking, you have priority first in the declare attackers step. So just use your priority right away, and there shouldn't be any problems.
In my experience most judges will get both of these situations right most of the time. When you think there may be an issue, it never hurts to remind your opponent at the beginning of the game that you might occasionally make plays at unusual times and that it would be nice if he didn't rush you.
EDIT: If you need some support, note that the Tournament Rules has a section on shortcuts. Notably absent is any mention of "Players pass priority during draw steps" as a standard shortcut. The players could agree to use that as a shortcut, but unless they do so agree, it's not being used.
To come back to your original question of opponent using the divining top on his upkeep, it should be fair to expect him to make a distinction between the top ability and the draw step (such as him putting all the cards back and saying 'draw?'). If you catch him rushing to draw his card, tell him politely that he should give you time to acknowledge the move to draw phase, regardless of whether you have an effect to play.
Okay good, cause I've also done it, haha. Not exactly the nicest thing to do I'll admit.
Your opponent does not have priority to cast Silence willy-nilly during your upkeep. They get priority to do so when you give them priority. This can occur when they put something on the stack and do not retain priority, or when you announce the end of your upkeep step and try to move to the next step.
So, once their upkeep arrives, they can cast whatever they like. You can't get "in front" of them with Silence.
However, once they make an indication they are moving to draw - such as reaching for their library or saying "draw" - you should stop them and tell them you have an ability at the end of the upkeep step. At that point, you can put Silence on the stack.
This means, if the opponent actual has Vendilion Clique in his deck and 1UU open its not really smart to draw a card right away.
The least thing to ask for is an opponent that announces his draw.
As said, even if its just "Untap, Draw ?" , the opponent has its tiny window to say "stop" , if they do not, you draw, and they missed the chance.
If you say nothing and just draw the card, everyone will side with the opponent, as you failed to communicate with the opponent, which is as little as "draw ..." , 1 word, nothing more.
Same goes for combat, if you want to attack and you see the opponent has mana, its in your best interest to give a quick "combat ?" and get the yes/no from the opponent. If a player just rushes ahead and taps attackers, the rewind will happen (if its a timely manner, not like they tap the attackers and the opponent still thinks for 30 seconds, then says "oh wait i wanted to play something before you attack" , then its quite obvisiously too late).
If an opponent is tapped out, its often totally ok to not ask for combat/draw and the like, as you quite likely do not have to fear anything to happen.
If its legacy or you can expect wacky cards, asking doesnt hurt and costs pretty much no time.
Its good habbit to get used to the tiny words, as they let you avoid a lot of otherwise bad communication / or no communcation at all.
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