Say I use Pit Fight and my creature has deathtouch. WOuld his creature die?
Also, if I use a creature with first strike and use first strike to kill a deathtouch creature, will my creature die?
First strike and double strike only have an effect during the combat phase as they add an additional combat damage step to the combat phase so it will not do anything when a creature fights another.
Deathtouch on the other hand affects all damage dealt by that creature so yes if a creature with deathtouch fights another creature 1 point of damage will be sufficient to destroy the opposing creature.
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First strike and double strike only have an effect during the combat phase as they add an additional combat damage step to the combat phase so it will not do anything when a creature fights another.
Deathtouch on the other hand affects all damage dealt by that creature so yes if a creature with deathtouch fights another creature 1 point of damage will be sufficient to destroy the opposing creature.
Deathtouch? Yes. Deathtouch applies to all damage.
First strike has no interaction with the fight mechanic; it only ever applies in combat.
I actually have to disagree with this after doing some research. This question actually made me think of Fall of the Hammer and the fact that reminder text of Pit Fight states "deal damage EQUAL to its power". And according to the most updated comprehensive rulebook, deathtouch would not be relevant in a "fight" scenario.
701.10d The damage dealt when a creature fights isn’t combat damage.
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature’s toughness.
So what I would take away from this is that deathtouch doesn't matter in the case of making cards "fight", such as with Pit Fight.
@munkmetal1
The rulings you quoted has absolutely nothing to do with the scenario presented. And you wrong.
Deathtouch means that ANY ammout damage higher than 0 (combat and non-combat) dealt to the creature will destroy it.
Fight makes one creature deals damage to another creature. What deals the damage is the creature, so anything that have effect on creature dealing non-combat damage (such as deathtouch and lifelink) will interact with figth.
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature’s toughness.
Which version of the rules do you have? Your copy seems to be incomplete, starting with missing the end of rule 702.2b.
These rules are effective as of February 1, 2014.
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature’s toughness. See rules 510.1c–d.
510.1c A blocked creature assigns its combat damage to the creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage. If exactly one creature is blocking it, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can’t assign combat damage to a creature that’s blocking it unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt. An amount of damage that’s greater than a creature’s lethal damage may be assigned to it.
510.1d A blocking creature assigns combat damage to the creatures it’s blocking. If it isn’t currently blocking any creatures (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage. If it’s blocking exactly one creature, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If it’s blocking two or more creatures, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocking creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can’t assign combat damage to a creature that it’s blocking unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocked creature is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt. An amount of damage that’s greater than a creature’s lethal damage may be assigned to it.
Rule 702.2b is about the assignment of combat damage, not about the consequences of a source with deathtouch actually dealing damage to a creature.
So what I would take away from this is that deathtouch doesn't matter in the case of making cards "fight", such as with Pit Fight.
702.2c A creature with toughness greater than 0 that’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked is destroyed as a state-based action. See rule 704.
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
Notice that the rules actually specifying that deathtouch results in destruction say nothing about the damage being "combat" damage.
I stand corrected. I dug a little further and found some official WoTC rulings on the matter. The wordings were making it seem as though it was creating a separate action of just using the 2 creatures power as a source of instant spell damage to each other, if that makes sense to anyone other than me.
I stand corrected. I dug a little further and found some official WoTC rulings on the matter. The wordings were making it seem as though it was creating a separate action of just using the 2 creatures power as a source of instant spell damage to each other, if that makes sense to anyone other than me.
Fling. That is a spell which uses the creature's power as the amount of damage, yet the damage is actually coming from a spell, not the creature. In this case, since Fling is the source of damage, Deathtouch/Lifelink are irrelevant.
The Fight mechanic, on the other hand, has the creatures dealing the damage.
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Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
See. And THAT is where my confusion was coming from. It was in the wording. Even Fling words it the same way, it's just referencing that it comes from a sacrificed creature instead.
Pit Fight - Reminder Text: (Each deals damage equal to its power to the other.)
Fling - Fling deals damage equal to the sacrificed creature's power to target creature or player
Both are described in exactly the same way, the only difference being Flings power determination coming from a SACRIFICED creature. Both instances are brought about by an instant or sorcery spell. The wording just makes them BOTH seem as though they are just using the creatures power as determination for damage, not necessarily forcing an ACTUAL "fight". That's all that was confusing me. But... alas, apparently I was wrong. Still think the fight mechanic should be slightly re-worded.
What does ACTUAL "fight" mean, and why would it matter to the question about deathtouch?
Pit Fight with A as the target creature you control and B as the other target creature
Damage instance 1:
Source: A
Amount: A's power
Recipient: B
Damage instance 2:
Source: B
Amount: B's power
Recipient: A
Fling with S as the sacrificed creature and T as the target creature
Damage instance 1:
Source: Fling
Amount: S's power
Recipient: T
Reason deathtouch can result in B's destruction: "Source: A"
Reason deathtouch can't result in T's destruction: "Source: Fling"
Deathtouch would likewise matter for Fall of the Hammer or Lightning Volley.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
The deathtouch isn't so much my point anymore. My point is that both instances, Fight and Fling, BOTH describe their abilities as "dealing damage EQUAL to its power". It just makes it sound as though either ability is just a glorified Lightning Bolt or Lava Axe that are just using a creatures power as a variable determination for the amount of damage being dealt. I'm not trying to say the deathtouch relevance with fight cards is wrong or that I still disagree, it's just that the wording isn't necessarily "clear". That's all.
The deathtouch isn't so much my point anymore. My point is that both instances, Fight and Fling, BOTH describe their abilities as "dealing damage EQUAL to its power". It just makes it sound as though either ability is just a glorified Lightning Bolt or Lava Axe that are just using a creatures power as a variable determination for the amount of damage being dealt. I'm not trying to say the deathtouch relevance with fight cards is wrong or that I still disagree, it's just that the wording isn't necessarily "clear". That's all.
You're focusing on an irrelevant detail. It doesn't matter how much damage is to be dealt or what value you use to calculate that. The relevant point is who is dealing the damage - what game object is the source of the damage.
Fling says "Fling deals damage...". The Fight keyword has reminder text saying "Each deals damage...", where 'each' can only mean the two creatures cited before by that card. The damage source is Fling in the first case and each creature in the second.
I see no problem with the wording.
You know what? You're absolutely right. I do have a bad habit of focusing too much attention on the wrong thing... kind of like my ex. Bahaha. Thank you for finally making it click willdice.
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Go frack yourself...
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Also, if I use a creature with first strike and use first strike to kill a deathtouch creature, will my creature die?
Deathtouch on the other hand affects all damage dealt by that creature so yes if a creature with deathtouch fights another creature 1 point of damage will be sufficient to destroy the opposing creature.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
First strike has no interaction with the fight mechanic; it only ever applies in combat.
When in doubt, call a judge.
Objectivist here. Hit me up to talk philosophy.
I actually have to disagree with this after doing some research. This question actually made me think of Fall of the Hammer and the fact that reminder text of Pit Fight states "deal damage EQUAL to its power". And according to the most updated comprehensive rulebook, deathtouch would not be relevant in a "fight" scenario.
So what I would take away from this is that deathtouch doesn't matter in the case of making cards "fight", such as with Pit Fight.
The rulings you quoted has absolutely nothing to do with the scenario presented. And you wrong.
Deathtouch means that ANY ammout damage higher than 0 (combat and non-combat) dealt to the creature will destroy it.
Fight makes one creature deals damage to another creature. What deals the damage is the creature, so anything that have effect on creature dealing non-combat damage (such as deathtouch and lifelink) will interact with figth.
Which version of the rules do you have? Your copy seems to be incomplete, starting with missing the end of rule 702.2b. Rule 702.2b is about the assignment of combat damage, not about the consequences of a source with deathtouch actually dealing damage to a creature.
Notice that the rules actually specifying that deathtouch results in destruction say nothing about the damage being "combat" damage.
Fling. That is a spell which uses the creature's power as the amount of damage, yet the damage is actually coming from a spell, not the creature. In this case, since Fling is the source of damage, Deathtouch/Lifelink are irrelevant.
The Fight mechanic, on the other hand, has the creatures dealing the damage.
Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
Both are described in exactly the same way, the only difference being Flings power determination coming from a SACRIFICED creature. Both instances are brought about by an instant or sorcery spell. The wording just makes them BOTH seem as though they are just using the creatures power as determination for damage, not necessarily forcing an ACTUAL "fight". That's all that was confusing me. But... alas, apparently I was wrong. Still think the fight mechanic should be slightly re-worded.
Pit Fight with A as the target creature you control and B as the other target creature
Damage instance 1:
Source: A
Amount: A's power
Recipient: B
Damage instance 2:
Source: B
Amount: B's power
Recipient: A
Fling with S as the sacrificed creature and T as the target creature
Damage instance 1:
Source: Fling
Amount: S's power
Recipient: T
Reason deathtouch can result in B's destruction: "Source: A"
Reason deathtouch can't result in T's destruction: "Source: Fling"
Deathtouch would likewise matter for Fall of the Hammer or Lightning Volley.
You're focusing on an irrelevant detail. It doesn't matter how much damage is to be dealt or what value you use to calculate that. The relevant point is who is dealing the damage - what game object is the source of the damage.
Fling says "Fling deals damage...". The Fight keyword has reminder text saying "Each deals damage...", where 'each' can only mean the two creatures cited before by that card. The damage source is Fling in the first case and each creature in the second.
I see no problem with the wording.