Ok, so I have a 3/3 beast token, 8 cards in hand, an untapped mountain and nothing else.
I attack my opponent with my 3/3 token....
he blocks it with his almighty Vizzerdrix
my creature dies, his has 3 damage marked on it.
then we both repeatedly pass priority until the end of the end step.
Then comes Cleanup step....
In this step I decide to discard Fiery Temper and cast it for it's madness cost targeting Vizzerdrix.
What now?
I'm having a hard time interpreting that....
the relevant rulings are as follows:
514. Cleanup Step
514.1. First, if the active player's hand contains more cards than his or her maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce his or her hand size to that number. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:
514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins.
My doubt is....
as we discard excess cards before cleaning up damage and finishing "until end of turn" effects.
Do the second step of special actions wait until my madness ability and then the Fiery Temper resolves?
in that case, the Vizzerdrix would die.
or will the game just make everything happen virtually at the same time, making the damage marked in vizzerdrix to be cleared before I can even cast my burn spell on it? Thus making it actually live?
The Vizzerdrix will live. In the clean up step you discard down to maximum hand size and then all damage is removed from permanents with nothing else happening in between. After this if something should have triggered (Madness in this case) it will be resolved like normal and use the stack. Once this is done with there will be another clean up step until nothing happens.
In this case the way things would work out is this:
You discard the Fiery Temper and choose to exile it instead of allowing it to hit the GY during the hand size portion of the clean up step.
Then all damage is removed from creatures and until end of turn things happen.
Finally the triggered ability from Fiery Temper is put onto the stack and you are given the option to either cast it or put it into the GY.
Still, if it happens like this, why does wizards splits the special actions in two steps?!
if nothing can happen in between.... why not simply make it a single rule that says everything happen simultaneously?
Is there a specific situation I'm not seeing here where discarding first becomes relevant?
Is there a specific situation I'm not seeing here where discarding first becomes relevant?
Situation: due to Mirrorweave, some creatures are copies of Confessor "until end of turn". With the current rule, those clearly trigger. If the whole mess were simultaneous, those would not.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
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I attack my opponent with my 3/3 token....
he blocks it with his almighty Vizzerdrix
my creature dies, his has 3 damage marked on it.
then we both repeatedly pass priority until the end of the end step.
Then comes Cleanup step....
In this step I decide to discard Fiery Temper and cast it for it's madness cost targeting Vizzerdrix.
What now?
I'm having a hard time interpreting that....
the relevant rulings are as follows:
My doubt is....
as we discard excess cards before cleaning up damage and finishing "until end of turn" effects.
Do the second step of special actions wait until my madness ability and then the Fiery Temper resolves?
in that case, the Vizzerdrix would die.
or will the game just make everything happen virtually at the same time, making the damage marked in vizzerdrix to be cleared before I can even cast my burn spell on it? Thus making it actually live?
So... what now?
In this case the way things would work out is this:
You discard the Fiery Temper and choose to exile it instead of allowing it to hit the GY during the hand size portion of the clean up step.
Then all damage is removed from creatures and until end of turn things happen.
Finally the triggered ability from Fiery Temper is put onto the stack and you are given the option to either cast it or put it into the GY.
Still, if it happens like this, why does wizards splits the special actions in two steps?!
if nothing can happen in between.... why not simply make it a single rule that says everything happen simultaneously?
Is there a specific situation I'm not seeing here where discarding first becomes relevant?
Situation: due to Mirrorweave, some creatures are copies of Confessor "until end of turn". With the current rule, those clearly trigger. If the whole mess were simultaneous, those would not.