When I am playing on MTGO using a deck that includes Master Biomancer and Nylea, God of the Hunt, if my devotion to Green is 4, Nylea enters as a creature but does not get the counters from Master Biomancer. If my devotion is already 5 or greater, Nylea enters as God Mutant with the counters from Biomancer. Can you explain why it triggers that way?
A permanent entering the battlefield will look at its own static abilities to determine what its characteristics will be as it enters the battlefield for the purposes of effects that care about how it enters. It uses the current board state for information, meaning it isn't actually on the battlefield yet at the time this is being processed.
EDIT: I didn't say that part quite right. For the purposes of effects that care about how a permanent would enter the battlefield, you determine how that permanent would look on the battlefield by taking into account the current game state. This is done before the permanent is actually on the battlefield, so it doesn't get considered.
In the example where you currently have 4 devotion, Nylea, God of the Hunt will determine it's not entering as a creature and Master Biomancer's replacement effect can't apply to it. In the example where you currently have 5 devotion, the opposite happens.
That seems counter-intuitive. If you have 4 devotion (Nylea putting it up to 5), will Nylea trigger enters the battlefield abilities (say, Angelic Chorus)?
The Angelic Chorus case is different because to determine whether and how the ETB ability triggers, you use information about the game from the moment the permanent actually enters the battlefield, not before. In that example, you gain life.
It just seems strange that Nylea would look into the future to see whether she will be a creature or not in the case of a replacement effect. Considering that she's always a creature in every zone other than the battlefield (including the stack).
Basically, I can't wrap my head around how a replacement effect is looking for something different from a triggered ability. Either a creature entered the battlefield (or is entering the battlefield), or it didn't (or isn't). Why can Angelic Chorus see that while Master Biomancer can't?
I suppose Rusted Relic follows the same rules, but there it makes sense to me since he's not a creature while on the stack. Nylea, on the other hand, is never not a creature.
The essential difference is that replacement effects (like that on Master Biomancer) can't be applied to an event after it's already happened, so you have to use information about the game from before the event to sort them out. The full detail of how this is done is in the following rule:
Quote from CR 614.12 »
Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule
400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
So what we have is that Nylea considers the current state of the battlefield without her yet being there (4 devotion) and her own abilities (not a creature if devotion is less than 5) to figure out whether or not Master Biomancer's replacement effect should apply to the event of her entering the battlefield. The answer is "not a creature", so Biomancer doesn't get applied and there are no counters.
In your Rusted Relic example, it does enter with counters if you currently already have Metalcraft. Going through the same process, the answer is "is a creature", so Biomancer would get applied and there are 2 +1/+1 counters.
Yeah, I checked that after 2goth4U referenced the rule. Makes sense based on that. Thanks for walking me through it.
What I meant with the Rusted Relic example was that if you have two other artifacts, Master Biomancer won't see him as a creature, but Angelic Chorus will.
Thanks
[Clan Flamingo]
A permanent entering the battlefield will look at its own static abilities to determine what its characteristics will be as it enters the battlefield for the purposes of effects that care about how it enters. It uses the current board state for information, meaning it isn't actually on the battlefield yet at the time this is being processed.EDIT: I didn't say that part quite right. For the purposes of effects that care about how a permanent would enter the battlefield, you determine how that permanent would look on the battlefield by taking into account the current game state. This is done before the permanent is actually on the battlefield, so it doesn't get considered.
In the example where you currently have 4 devotion, Nylea, God of the Hunt will determine it's not entering as a creature and Master Biomancer's replacement effect can't apply to it. In the example where you currently have 5 devotion, the opposite happens.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
Basically, I can't wrap my head around how a replacement effect is looking for something different from a triggered ability. Either a creature entered the battlefield (or is entering the battlefield), or it didn't (or isn't). Why can Angelic Chorus see that while Master Biomancer can't?
I suppose Rusted Relic follows the same rules, but there it makes sense to me since he's not a creature while on the stack. Nylea, on the other hand, is never not a creature.
So what we have is that Nylea considers the current state of the battlefield without her yet being there (4 devotion) and her own abilities (not a creature if devotion is less than 5) to figure out whether or not Master Biomancer's replacement effect should apply to the event of her entering the battlefield. The answer is "not a creature", so Biomancer doesn't get applied and there are no counters.
In your Rusted Relic example, it does enter with counters if you currently already have Metalcraft. Going through the same process, the answer is "is a creature", so Biomancer would get applied and there are 2 +1/+1 counters.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
What I meant with the Rusted Relic example was that if you have two other artifacts, Master Biomancer won't see him as a creature, but Angelic Chorus will.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
[Clan Flamingo]