Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge

  • #1
    If I cast Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge for a second time, am I still able to cast the cards that were exile the first time I casted her?
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  • #2
    Nope. Once she changes zones, she becomes an entirely new object with no memory of her previous existence or any cards she exiled.
  • #3
    As a follow up to this question, I have been playing under the assumption that
    Jeleva's exiled cards have to go in their own pile. Because they're not regular exiled, they're special exiled. 1- Is this correct? 2- When she leaves play, does her pile go away and just become regular exiled? Thanks in advance!
  • #4
    1. No, there isn't a "special" exile zone for the cards exiled by Jeleva. There's just the one exile zone -- you'll just have to keep track of which cards have been exiled by her ability.

    2. Since there's no special pile or anything, nothing in particular happens to the exiled cards. They simply remain in the exile zone, as they were prior to Jeleva leaving the battlefield. Of course, they lose the ability to be cast by Jeleva at all, since Jeleva comes back as a new object without any memory of its previous existence the next time it enters the battlefield.
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  • #5
    Follow up question.

    With her second ability of playing exiled spells,

    Can you cast spells with "X" in their casting cost such as Starstorm, Skyscribing and Prosperity if you pay the "X"?
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  • #6
    Quote from JMS210
    Follow up question.

    With her second ability of playing exiled spells,

    Can you cast spells with "X" in their casting cost such as Starstorm, Skyscribing and Prosperity if you pay the "X"?


    Technically you can cast them, but only for x=0. Jeleva gives you an alternate way of casting a spell and it's all or nothing. You can cast it for 0 or not at all sadly.
  • #7
    Can we get a judge ruling? Everyone at my LGS assures me that you can cast cards exiled with her ability when she attacks, regardless of which time she exiled them. Since the card specifically says "Whenever Jeleva attacks, you may cast an instant or sorcery card exiled with it without paying its mana cost." similar to Chandra, Pyromaster's 0 ability.

    I normally keep the cards in the same exile pile, but have them sideways or upside down to distinguish them from other cards.
  • #8
    Quote from VegaTDM
    Can we get a judge ruling? Everyone at my LGS assures me that you can cast cards exiled with her ability when she attacks, regardless of which time she exiled them. Since the card specifically says "Whenever Jeleva attacks, you may cast an instant or sorcery card exiled with it without paying its mana cost." similar to Chandra, Pyromaster's 0 ability.

    I normally keep the cards in the same exile pile, but have them sideways or upside down to distinguish them from other cards.


    It is important to remember that the game does not have a memory.

    Each time Jelava moves zones, the game thinks of her as a brand new permanent. What the Jelava you cast on turn four exiled is completely irrelevant to all future iterations of the same card - the game does not keep track.
  • #9
    Quote from Saurus
    It is important to remember that the game does not have a memory.

    Each time Jelava moves zones, the game thinks of her as a brand new permanent. What the Jelava you cast on turn four exiled is completely irrelevant to all future iterations of the same card - the game does not keep track.


    But the game does keep track how many times I've cast her & how much commander dmg she has dealt, so why not what cards exiled with her?

    How is this different from abilities like Ashling the Pilgrim or Dragon Whelp[/CARD] where the game keeps track how how many times the ability has resolved? Why is the number of times an ability was used different from the results of an ability?
  • #10
    Quote from VegaTDM
    Can we get a judge ruling? Everyone at my LGS assures me that you can cast cards exiled with her ability when she attacks, regardless of which time she exiled them. Since the card specifically says "Whenever Jeleva attacks, you may cast an instant or sorcery card exiled with it without paying its mana cost." similar to Chandra, Pyromaster's 0 ability.

    I normally keep the cards in the same exile pile, but have them sideways or upside down to distinguish them from other cards.


    Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
    400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.


    The "exiled cards" that are referred to in Jeleva's text are the ones that are exiled with that specific instance of the card. Even if she dies and is cast again, the re-cast Jeleva, despite being represented by the same physical card, is a completely new object. As a completely new object, she is not linked to those exiled cards from before.

    Quote from Palnar »
    As a follow up to this question, I have been playing under the assumption that
    Jeleva's exiled cards have to go in their own pile...


    There is only one exile zone, and anything that has been exiled is sent to the same exact zone. That said, a lot of people will put exiled cards that are linked to some ability beneath or next to whatever exiled them in order to keep it all clear. For example, I will put any cards with cipher ability underneath the creature I am encoding them to after I cast it.
    Last edited by ThePeople'sHero: 11/26/2013 2:52:52 AM
  • #11
    Quote from VegaTDM
    Can we get a judge ruling? Everyone at my LGS assures me that you can cast cards exiled with her ability when she attacks, regardless of which time she exiled them. Since the card specifically says "Whenever Jeleva attacks, you may cast an instant or sorcery card exiled with it without paying its mana cost." similar to Chandra, Pyromaster's 0 ability.


    The point is "it" is not the card itself, but the permanent it became entering the battlefield. When it leaves the battlefield it stops being "it" even if it becomes a permanent again even if represented bu the same card.


    I normally keep the cards in the same exile pile, but have them sideways or upside down to distinguish them from other cards.


    You just need to keep track of what exiles what (think multiple Oblivion Rings on the battlefield). The only thing that is mandatory is exiled cards must be face up unless otherwise stated by the effect exiling it. It is perfectly fine to exile something with Oblivion Ring and putting the exiled card under it as long as its name is visible as it's peering out from there.
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  • #12
    Quote from VegaTDM
    Can we get a judge ruling? Everyone at my LGS assures me that you can cast cards exiled with her ability when she attacks, regardless of which time she exiled them. Since the card specifically says "Whenever Jeleva attacks, you may cast an instant or sorcery card exiled with it without paying its mana cost." similar to Chandra, Pyromaster's 0 ability.

    I normally keep the cards in the same exile pile, but have them sideways or upside down to distinguish them from other cards.

    The rule you're looking for is:
    Quote from Comp Rules »
    400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
    (None of which are relevant here)

    So the new Jeleva is a new object. Next we have:
    201.4. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.

    So Jeleva only cares about cards exiled by that particular Jeleva. But wait, there's more:
    406.5. An object may have one ability printed on it that causes one or more cards to be exiled, and another ability that refers either to “the exiled cards” or to cards “exiled with [this object].” These abilities are linked: the second refers only to cards that have been exiled due to the first. See rule 607, “Linked Abilities.”

    Does that answer your question?
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  • #13
    Quote from VegaTDM
    But the game does keep track how many times I've cast her & how much commander dmg she has dealt, so why not what cards exiled with her?

    How is this different from abilities like Ashling the Pilgrim or Dragon Whelp[/CARD] where the game keeps track how how many times the ability has resolved? Why is the number of times an ability was used different from the results of an ability?

    It's actually not different. In the two cases you mention (Ashling and Whelp), if the object changes zones and then returns to the battlefield or if the ability is somehow removed and then restored in the same turn, the game's count of the number of activations of those abilities does in fact reset because the game treats them as new instances of those abilities (with an exception for Planeswalkers in the latter case which remember if ANY ability has been activated). It's pretty much the same thing.
    Last edited by MadCow21: 11/26/2013 11:12:46 AM
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  • #14
    Quote from VegaTDM
    But the game does keep track how many times I've cast her & how much commander dmg she has dealt, so why not what cards exiled with her?
    To address this point in particular - The basic answer to why commander tax and commander damage are tracked across zone changes is because these are handled by a different rule that was designed for a different purpose. Being a commander is a property of the specific card, rather than any particular game object represented by that card in a specific zone, so the game is able to keep track of the commander no matter where it is for the purpose of determining total combat damage dealt and how many times you've cast it from the command zone.

    By contrast, specific abilities on a permanent card that refer to that card mean the game object that is that particular instance of the card being on the battlefield - and if a card changes zones, the game treats it as a different game object.

    Keep in mind that for the purpose of any game mechanics that aren't the specific Commander rules, the game doesn't treat going to the command zone differently from a zone change to any other zone. You get the same answer in a non-Commander game if someone Unsummons Jeleva and its owner casts it again.
  • #15
    So if I understand correctly, even though the card specifically says I can, the rules say I can't. Even though the game keeps track of the dmg done to her, her commander damage and the amount of times I have cast her regardless of what zone she is in, if she goes anywhere but the battlefield the game arbitrary forgets everything else, except for the 7 exceptions to this rule that almost complete nullify the original rule. Like the one stating that Ability choices are remembered, but apparently not the result of these choices.

    "400.7c If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the spell that became that permanent as it resolved."

    Slightly off topic Questions, if I am correct, this means that any Permanent with Imprint forgets any imprinted cards upon blinking it, correct?

    Any blinked planeswalker reenters the battlefield with full Loyalty counters and can use their abilities again, correct?

    Any blinked creature without haste has summoning sickness?
  • #16
    Quote from VegaTDM

    "400.7c If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the spell that became that permanent as it resolved."

    Slightly off topic Questions, if I am correct, this means that any Permanent with Imprint forgets any imprinted cards upon blinking it, correct?

    Any blinked planeswalker reenters the battlefield with full Loyalty counters and can use their abilities again, correct?

    Any blinked creature without haste has summoning sickness?

    That rule doesn't pertain to any of those facts, facts though they are.


    Like the one stating that Ability choices are remembered, but apparently not the result of these choices.

    I'm not sure what 'exception' you're referring to.

    Yes, even though the card, being legendary and using a proper name to refer to itself, says that you have permissions to do things with objects affected by "her", you don't. This would be exactly your intuition if the card weren't legendary and did not refer to itself by name, and if that card had not been on the battlefield for many turns, taking a foray into your graveyard, library, hand, and battlefield again. Unfortunately the Commander rules do not extend so far as to make that use of Jeleva correct.

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  • #17
    Quote from VegaTDM
    So if I understand correctly, even though the card specifically says I can, the rules say I can't. Even though the game keeps track of the dmg done to her, her commander damage and the amount of times I have cast her regardless of what zone she is in, if she goes anywhere but the battlefield the game arbitrary forgets everything else, except for the 7 exceptions to this rule that almost complete nullify the original rule. Like the one stating that Ability choices are remembered, but apparently not the result of these choices.


    The card doesn't say that you can forget the rules of the game. If it changes zones it becomes a new object. Damage it deals and Commander Tax follow it because those are properties of being a Commander, but keeping track of damage dealt to her doesn't follow it through all zones, not sure what you meant by that. Also, the rule isn't "arbitrary" it happens when a specific action occurs: a permanent changes zones.

    Quote from VegaTDM
    "400.7c If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the spell that became that permanent as it resolved."


    This is in referance to cards like Steamcore Weird. It would be weird (pun intended) if the game forgot the information from the stack to the battlefield, since it would make the ability pointless. The other 6 exceptions are in place for the same reason since Rancor wouldn't work without 400.7d.

    Quote from VegaTDM
    Slightly off topic Questions, if I am correct, this means that any Permanent with Imprint forgets any imprinted cards upon blinking it, correct?


    This is correct. It changed zones, so it forgets any previous card imprinted with it.

    Quote from VegaTDM
    Any blinked planeswalker reenters the battlefield with full Loyalty counters and can use their abilities again, correct?


    This is also true.

    Quote from VegaTDM
    Any blinked creature without haste has summoning sickness?


    This is, like the other ones, true. But summoning sickness applies to any creature that you haven't controlled since the beginning of your turn, so a blinked creature without haste enters as a new creature that you haven't controlled since the beginning of your turn. The same applies to an opponents creature that you would Mind Control.
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  • #18
    such rules

    much comprehension

    wow


    Evey time i think i have a good handle on the mtg rules i find anything layer beneath it. You learn something new everyday. The next game of EDH i play at my LGS is going to be very interesting.
  • #19
    "400.7c If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the spell that became that permanent as it resolved."

    Does this mean that I cannot use a spell like Conjurer's Closet or Ghostwayto flash out/in Jeleva and trigger the part of the card that says...

    When Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge enters the battlefield, each player exiles the top X cards of his or her library, where X is the amount of mana spent to cast Jeleva.

    Because when it was returned it does not remember the mana spent to cast it?
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  • #20
    That is correct when Jeleva re enters the battlefield due to ghostway she has not been cast so x by default is 0.


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