Theros Gods

  • #1
    Hey, i just came to wonder about someting.. The Gods in Theros... they are:

    Legendary Enchantment Creature — God

    and the text on them says that It isn's a creature except if your devotion is of a certain number...

    but my question is. can i cast a "Counter target creature spell" to counter a God when it's casters devition says its not a creature? i mean. it hasn't entered the battlefield, so you can't correctly count the devotion..

    lets say Im Playing Erebos, God of the dead. and i only got a Desecration Demon in play. so my Devotion to black at the moment im playing Erebos is 2... and the text on Erebos clearly states that it is not a creature yet....

    but my friend casts Essence Scatter to counter my spell.. is this legal?

    Another Scenario:
    when Erebos Enters (Lets say i also got a Healer of the Pride in play from before) does the Triggered ability from the Healer Trigger or not?... x_X
  • #2
    They're creatures at all times everywhere besides on the battlefield, so you can counter them with Essence Scatter, but not with Negate (for example). Similarly, you can force them to be discarded using Despise, but not Durress. You can also tutor them out of your library with any creature or enchantment tutors and reanimate them as creatures. The only time they're ever not creatures (and therefore affected by anything that affects creatures) is on the battlefield when your devotion isn't high enough.
  • #3
    Most abilities (of permanent cards) only function while a card is a permanent (meaning, on the battlefield). The main exceptions are characteristic-defining abilities (Lhurgoyf), abilities that only make sense when activated from a given zone (cycling, Tymaret, the Murder King), and abilities that specifically mention that they work in other zones. Characteristic-defining abilities are defined in rule 604.3 and function everywhere. Abilities that only make sense in a given zone apply in that zone; for example, cycling includes "discard ~" as part of its cost, and you can only discard something from your hand; therefore cycling can be activated while the card is in your hand. And if an ability itself says that it's active in some zone, then it's active in that zone. Note that just because an ability isn't active in a given zone doesn't mean that the card loses that ability, just that it doesn't do anything; a creature with no abilities save cycling won't get boosted by [CARD]Muraganda Petroglyphs
    [/CARD], for example.

    The rule directly relevant to your question is 604.3, which defines characteristic-defining abilities:

    604.3. Some static abilities are characteristic-defining abilities. A characteristic-defining ability conveys information about an object's characteristics that would normally be found elsewhere on that object (such as in its mana cost, type line, or power/toughness box). Characteristic-defining abilities function in all zones. They also function outside the game.
    604.3a A static ability is a characteristic-defining ability if it meets the following criteria: (1) It defines an object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness; (2) it is printed on the card it affects, it was granted to the token it affects by the effect that created the token, or it was acquired by the object it affects as the result of a copy effect or text-changing effect; (3) it does not directly affect the characteristics of any other objects; (4) it is not an ability that an object grants to itself; and (5) it does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met.


    The last point on 604.3a means that the gods' abilities that make them non-creatures is not a characteristic-defining ability because it has a condition (your devotion being too low) and as such it is only active on the battlefield. (EDIT: Well, that, and it changes the object's type, which is not "[that] object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness".)
  • #4
    so can i give a -x/-x to a god who is not a creature to force it to be sacrificed?
  • #5
    Quote from natesroom
    so can i give a -x/-x to a god who is not a creature to force it to be sacrificed?


    A God who is not a creature will not be affected by an effect like that (and in the case of a spell that targets, won't be a legal target for the spell in the first place). The Gods don't even have a P/T stat when they are not creatures, so modifiers can't be applied to a stat that doesn't exist in the first place.

    As an aside, I would also note that a creature with 0 or less toughness isn't sacrificed, it is simply put into its owner's graveyard as a SBA. This becomes important in cases like Thraximundar who cares about sacrificed creatures specifically.
    Last edited by ThePeople'sHero: 10/22/2013 11:07:03 PM
  • #6
    Quote from natesroom
    so can i give a -x/-x to a god who is not a creature to force it to be sacrificed?


    Only if it's a creature. If you gave a global -x/-x to creatures, a God would die alongside it's followers, because putting creatures in the graveyard is a SBA, and they all go at the same time.

    *It's important to understand static abilities and state-based actions with Gods, because static abilities are always applied, and always represent the current board, even during the resolution of a spell or ability.
    "If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
    - To my youngest sister when she was 6.



    Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.




    Quote from Ninja Caterpie

    Last time it went large-small-large, it went "happy adventure land", "mana filled happy adventure land", "DEAD MANA ELDRAZI OVERRUN SAD DEFENSE LAND."
  • #7
    When does a SBA action happen? After the stack is empty?

    So in the case of a GOD if i make it -x/-x enough to make it zero, then the opponent bounces one of his creatures to his hand, would my spell then be targeting an illegal target?
  • #8
    Quote from natesroom
    When does a SBA action happen?
    after an SBA check, which occurs when a player would get priority or after an SBA check that did stuff
    Quote from natesroom
    After the stack is empty?
    then, but also at points while it isn't empty
    Quote from natesroom
    So in the case of a GOD if i make it -x/-x enough to make it zero, then the opponent bounces one of his creatures to his hand, would my spell then be targeting an illegal target?
    yes, if it targets a creature and the god isn't a creature (or even a god), then it's illegally targeting it and is countered (assuming it's the sole target).
    DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ

    DJ Vortex

    DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
    DCI #5209514320


    My Wife's Makeup Artist Page
  • #9
    State-based actions are checked whenever a player would receive priority, right before that player actually receives priority. The main things this means from a practical perspective is that you can never cast a spell or activate an ability in response to a state-based action, but state-based actions are never checked in the middle of resolving something.

    To illustrate this, let's say you control Erebos, God of the Dead and a Phyrexian Obliterator. Your opponent casts Death Wind for X=7 targeting Erebos. You have an Unsummon in your hand. If you allow Death Wind to resolve, your Erebos will die due to having 0 toughness before you get an opportunity to respond again. Conversely, if you Unsummon the Obliterator in response to Death Wind, your Erebos will no longer be a creature by the time Death Wind tries to resolve and Death Wind will be countered.

    If instead your opponent cast a spell that looked something like this, the result would be different.
    Theoretical Death Wind Variant XUB
    Instant
    Target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn. Return another target creature to its owner's hand.

    If your opponent cast this spell targeting Erebos for the -X/-X effect where X=7 and targeting Phyrexian Obliterator to be returned to your hand, Erebos wouldn't die, even though it briefly exists as a -2/0 creature. This is because Erebos stops being a creature as soon as the Obliterator leaves the battlefield, and therefore it isn't a creature by the time SBAs are checked.
    DCI Level 1 Judge
  • #10
    ok fair enough.. can i play Far/Away as a fused spell on something that was "fictionally" 4 devotion and the God was the 5th..

    If i fuse It by casting both sides and target one to go to their hand and then they sacrifice a creature do they have to sacrifice the god?
  • #11
    If a fused Far//Away returns a creature to the god's controller's hand, and as a result, the god is no longer a creature due to devotion dropping below 5, then the god won't be a creature when the second part of the spell happens, and it can't be sacrificed since it's not a creature.
    Level 3 Judge

    This FAQ answers many of the common questions asked in the MTGS Rulings forum. Take a look! Smile

    I'm the editor/content manager of the Magic Rules Tips Blog - Bookmark this site for daily tips about game and tournament rules.

    "Abstract concepts of perfect judging run headlong into the realities of how people play the game." - Toby Elliott (papa_funk)

    My Type 4 Stack -- DCI Documents -- Comp Rules
  • #12
    Quote from natesroom
    ok fair enough.. can i play Far/Away as a fused spell on something that was "fictionally" 4 devotion and the God was the 5th..

    If i fuse It by casting both sides and target one to go to their hand and then they sacrifice a creature do they have to sacrifice the god?


    The static ability that makes a God a creature or not is "always on". It is always checking to see if youhave enough devotion. If you cast a fused Far//away, you do the actions of the fused card from left to right. First you bounce a creature, then your opponent sacrifices a creature. If your opponent doesn't have enough devotion after bouncing the first creature, the god will no longer be a creature, so he will not be forced to sacrifice it
  • #13
    Say I cast the fictional card Away//Far targeting my opponent and his god and he sacs a creature that brings his devotion to under 5. His god will still be bounced correct? We only care about the legality of targets when declaring them and at the first step of resolving right?
  • #14
    Quote from jadoth
    Say I cast the fictional card Away//Far targeting my opponent and his god and he sacs a creature that brings his devotion to under 5. His god will still be bounced correct? We only care about the legality of targets when declaring them and at the first step of resolving right?


    The wording on the card resolves in order printed. A fused Far//Away first bounces the targeted God, then the opponent sacs a creature.
    "You are what you pretend to be, so you must be careful what you pretend to be" from Mother Night

    First posted EDH deck: Hakim, Beardmaster
  • #15
    Quote from Prismetrix
    The wording on the card resolves in order printed. A fused Far//Away first bounces the targeted God, then the opponent sacs a creature.


    That is why I asked about the fictional card Away//Far, not Far//Away.
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes