It does remove indestructable. This is a new rules change since M14 was released; Indestrucible is a keyworded ability.
It removes all abilities from the targeted permanent; what you are referring to as P/T modifiers are not themselves abilities, which is why they are not removed. They are continuous effects (probably the result of an ability from another permanent or from a spell) that are being applied to that creature using the layers system.
As far as what Turn//Burn will not affect, one recent addition to the list is whether or not a creature is monstrous.
EDIT: removed one part for the sake of clarity, you can see the full message noted below
On a related note, does the Turn part remove the mana cost of a creature?
Say I use Turn on an opponent's Boros Reckoner. Will the opponent's Devotion to Red/White decrease by 3?
I understand that, but the claim I was puzzled about was: "It does remove indestructable. This is a new rules change since M14 was released; Indestrucible is a keyworded ability, so a fused Turn and Burn will kill a God/ Tajic."
ThePeople'sHero seems to be saying here that prior to M14 Turn/Burn would not have killed a God or Tajic. I don't understand how that could have been the case.
To make it clear, you're correct. Turn and Burn could kill Tajic even prior to the M14 rules change, because "Tajic is indestructible" is an ability (just as any rules text in the text box of a card, by the way), so Turn removed it. The difference with the rules change is when the indestructible comes from the effect of something else than the creature itself, such as Withstand Death as stated above. Prior to M14, because "being indestructible" wasn't an ability, Turn wouldn't remove it, but now it does.
Doesn't remove shroud, hexproof and prored/blue creatures (Sabertooth Nishoba for instance)
That's not really what the OP meant, I think, although we can say that's indirectly true. He didn't mean "what does it not kill", but "what abilities and power/toughness modifications does its effect not remove". Of course, it is hard for Turn to make a creature lose any of those abilities, because Turn could not normally resolve on a creature with those (with the exception of Hexproof if Turn is cast on it by the creature's controller, then it will remove it, ha ha).
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Doesn't remove shroud, hexproof and prored/blue creatures (Sabertooth Nishoba for instance)
To correct what is being said here, Turn can strip these abilities, but you would normally be prevented from doing so by the innate nature of these abilities. Effects that let you circumvent these restrictions like Autumn Willow, Glaring Spotlight and Celestial Dawn will allow Turn to target the creature and thus remove the abilities in question.
If I have muraganda petroglyphs in play and the reckoner is turned, it will change from a 3/3 (it has abilities, so MP does not affect it) to a 2/3 (it is now vanilla, so it gets the MP bonus).
+1/+1 counters remain on the creature, so turn isn't all that great against creatures that have evolved a couple of times.
I understand that, but the claim I was puzzled about was: "It does remove indestructable. This is a new rules change since M14 was released; Indestrucible is a keyworded ability, so a fused Turn and Burn will kill a God/ Tajic."
ThePeople'sHero seems to be saying here that prior to M14 Turn/Burn would not have killed a God or Tajic. I don't understand how that could have been the case.
You are completely correct. I was mistaken in jumping to those examples. A better recent example would be a permanent that was made indestructible by Boros Charm. Before the rules change, a Boros Charm played in response to Turn//Burn would save the creature. Now, since the rules change, Boros Charm grants an ability that would be removed by the Turn//Burn.
Doesn't remove shroud, hexproof and prored/blue creatures (Sabertooth Nishoba for instance)
It actually would, were you somehow allowed to target them in spite of shroud, hexproof or protection (the artifact from RTR block, for example, for hexproof). There's a pretty significant difference between something not having an effect and something simply not be able to target. For example, Humility's effect would remove the protection, shroud and hexproof.
If I use Turn on a Master of Waves does it still have the 'Elemental Creatures you control get +1/+1'?
No. Everything that is written in a card's text box (apart from flavor text) is an ability and will be removed by Turn's effect.
There are some edge cases where an ability can apply anyway even though it is removed, due to the layer system (for example, Magus of the Moon's ability applies to nonbasic lands even if it is removed by Turn, because card type-changing effects are applied before ability-removing effects) but this is not relevant in the case of Master of Waves since its effect would apply in the layer after the ability-removing effect, by which time the game realizes that it isn't there anymore.
613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, "Copying Objects."
613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, "Text-Changing Effects."
613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
613.2. Within layers 1-6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.6). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.7.)
604.3a A static ability is a characteristic-defining ability if it meets the following criteria: (1) It defines an object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness; (2) it is printed on the card it affects, it was granted to the token it affects by the effect that created the token, or it was acquired by the object it affects as the result of a copy effect or text-changing effect; (3) it does not directly affect the characteristics of any other objects; (4) it is not an ability that an object grants to itself; and (5) it does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met.
As a rule of thumb, you can often treat a "lose all abilities" effect as though there is simply nothing in that cards text box. The exceptions are anything that applies before layer 6. Examples:
If a card says "This creature is green", then since it is a characteristic defining ability, it is applied before Turn's effect, and is then overwritten by Turn. The creature will be red.
If a card says "This creature gets +1/+1 if it is untapped." Because power/toughness changing effects are applied in layer 7, this ability will be removed before it can be applied. Thus, the creature will never get +1/+1 from this ability if it has be Turned.
If a creature has been targeted by some external (resolved) effect that gives +3/+3, then it will still get +3/+3 because (a) +3/+3 is an effect, not an ability, and (b) if an ability grants this effect, it is not on this creature, so Turn doesn't effect it.
In summary:
A creature doesn't lose its colors, types, subtypes, power, toughness, name, or mana cost, since these are all characteristics, not abilities. If a characteristic is defined by an ability, then you have to use the layer system to see what happens.
(Feel free to correct me if I've made any mistakes.)
I know it doesn't remove Indestructible or power/toughness modifiers (give something +2/+2, turn it into a 0/1 weird, it's now a 2/3 weird).
What else does it not remove?
It removes all abilities from the targeted permanent; what you are referring to as P/T modifiers are not themselves abilities, which is why they are not removed. They are continuous effects (probably the result of an ability from another permanent or from a spell) that are being applied to that creature using the layers system.
As far as what Turn//Burn will not affect, one recent addition to the list is whether or not a creature is monstrous.
EDIT: removed one part for the sake of clarity, you can see the full message noted below
Say I use Turn on an opponent's Boros Reckoner. Will the opponent's Devotion to Red/White decrease by 3?
My guess is no, but I would love to be corrected.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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That's not really what the OP meant, I think, although we can say that's indirectly true. He didn't mean "what does it not kill", but "what abilities and power/toughness modifications does its effect not remove". Of course, it is hard for Turn to make a creature lose any of those abilities, because Turn could not normally resolve on a creature with those (with the exception of Hexproof if Turn is cast on it by the creature's controller, then it will remove it, ha ha).
To correct what is being said here, Turn can strip these abilities, but you would normally be prevented from doing so by the innate nature of these abilities. Effects that let you circumvent these restrictions like Autumn Willow, Glaring Spotlight and Celestial Dawn will allow Turn to target the creature and thus remove the abilities in question.
If turn//burn is pointed at a boros reckoner that has previously had giant growth resolve on it this turn, it will turn from a 6/6 into a 3/4.
If I have muraganda petroglyphs in play and the reckoner is turned, it will change from a 3/3 (it has abilities, so MP does not affect it) to a 2/3 (it is now vanilla, so it gets the MP bonus).
+1/+1 counters remain on the creature, so turn isn't all that great against creatures that have evolved a couple of times.
You are completely correct. I was mistaken in jumping to those examples. A better recent example would be a permanent that was made indestructible by Boros Charm. Before the rules change, a Boros Charm played in response to Turn//Burn would save the creature. Now, since the rules change, Boros Charm grants an ability that would be removed by the Turn//Burn.
It actually would, were you somehow allowed to target them in spite of shroud, hexproof or protection (the artifact from RTR block, for example, for hexproof). There's a pretty significant difference between something not having an effect and something simply not be able to target. For example, Humility's effect would remove the protection, shroud and hexproof.
There are some edge cases where an ability can apply anyway even though it is removed, due to the layer system (for example, Magus of the Moon's ability applies to nonbasic lands even if it is removed by Turn, because card type-changing effects are applied before ability-removing effects) but this is not relevant in the case of Master of Waves since its effect would apply in the layer after the ability-removing effect, by which time the game realizes that it isn't there anymore.
As a rule of thumb, you can often treat a "lose all abilities" effect as though there is simply nothing in that cards text box. The exceptions are anything that applies before layer 6. Examples:
If a card says "This creature is green", then since it is a characteristic defining ability, it is applied before Turn's effect, and is then overwritten by Turn. The creature will be red.
If a card says "This creature gets +1/+1 if it is untapped." Because power/toughness changing effects are applied in layer 7, this ability will be removed before it can be applied. Thus, the creature will never get +1/+1 from this ability if it has be Turned.
If a creature has been targeted by some external (resolved) effect that gives +3/+3, then it will still get +3/+3 because (a) +3/+3 is an effect, not an ability, and (b) if an ability grants this effect, it is not on this creature, so Turn doesn't effect it.
In summary:
A creature doesn't lose its colors, types, subtypes, power, toughness, name, or mana cost, since these are all characteristics, not abilities. If a characteristic is defined by an ability, then you have to use the layer system to see what happens.
(Feel free to correct me if I've made any mistakes.)
There is an infinite number of things that Turn//Burn doesn't do. Listing them all is not a good use of our time. Thread locked.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.