so guys, i think i know the answer to this question, but i saw more then one person trying to use this interaction and i think it doesnt work
Guy uses Whip of Erebos to reanimate Obzedat, ghost council. then, at end of turn, they want obzedat's ability to work and get it back the other turn. i think the substitution effect of the whip works in this case and he doesnt get creature back the other turn. what happens?
Whip and Obzedat interact very nicely (for the player controlling them). The whip's exiling is conditional on the creature being put "anywhere else" aside from exile. As Obzedat is already being exiled, the replacement effect doesn't do anything.
The relevant portion of Whip of Erebos's effect says, "If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Since Obzedat's ability is already putting it in exile, the replacement effect created by the Whip's ability doesn't apply.
Obzedat's exiling action is replaced by the Whip exiling it. This basically changes nothing, and Obzedat's ability will keep affecting the exiled object and return it at the next upkeep.
As quoted by others the whip doesn't even try to replace anything because it has the clause anywhere else, so it doesn't care because he is already being exiled.
Can you back up that with a reference to the comprehensive rules?
As I read it, the replacement effect takes place when the permanent leaves the battlefield, regardless of where it's going. Does "exile it instead of putting it anywhere else" change the effect in any way compared to if it just said "exile it instead"?
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
Some continuous effects are replacement effects. <snip> Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.
It's the definition of a replacement effect. The effect says "instead of putting it anywhere else", but it isn't going somewhere else, it's going to exile, so there's no replacement effect to apply to the situation. Your alternate example isn't a functional replacement effect. Exile it instead of what? It still would function the same, though, because there is no event to modify - it's already doing exactly what the replacement effect wants it to do. See rulings related to unearth.
Can you back up that with a reference to the comprehensive rules?
As I read it, the replacement effect takes place when the permanent leaves the battlefield, regardless of where it's going. Does "exile it instead of putting it anywhere else" change the effect in any way compared to if it just said "exile it instead"?
The wording defines what event the replacement can change.
If it says "exile it instead of puting it anywhere else", the 'anywhere else' means 'anywhere except exile'. It will replace the creature going to any other zone except exile, with going to exile. If the creature is already going to be exiled, the replacement doesn't apply to this event.
So if you added Restoration Angel to the mix, you'd get to keep Obzedat? And he'd exile from his own ability at EOT because he's a "new" version?
Yes. Note that you can also keep it without a Restoration Angel, as the trigger from Whip of Erebos and Obzedat's own trigger will trigger at the same time. Since you control both triggers, you can stack them either way, and if his own ability resolves first and exiles him, the Whip's exile trigger will do nothing and it will return next turn as a new object.
It's the definition of a replacement effect. The effect says "instead of putting it anywhere else", but it isn't going somewhere else, it's going to exile, so there's no replacement effect to apply to the situation. Your alternate example isn't a functional replacement effect. Exile it instead of what? It still would function the same, though, because there is no event to modify - it's already doing exactly what the replacement effect wants it to do. See rulings related to unearth.
Am I wrong in thinking that the distinction between the Whip's/unearth's replacement effect applying or not is completely academic and non-functional. Either way it ends up in same zone and Obzedat and other such cards have a zone change trigger that look for them in what ever zone they went to anyways. Untill we get a card that says "if a card where to go to exile put it in it owners graveyard instead" this distinction seems completely non-functional.
nope, even if Whip's effect did apply, Obzy's delayed trigger would still find it in exile to return it
while I realize obzy just ignores the whip and exiles himself (under normal circumstances)
In theory I don't see how he could return himself if somehow the whip did send him away.
Isn't his return from exile a conditional if statement? "if you exile him"? meaning if you exile him with his ability
I would think exiling him through some other means would leave him there
If I'm wrong than I guess the follow up question is: what if he gets exiled by an oblivion ring? he can't return himself than can he?
unless he can return himself from exile no matter what put him there the whip (if it could hit him) I would think would leave him there just like any other form of exile (not that it matters in the case of the whip since he avoids it by exiling himself)
Or am I missing something that allows him to return no matter how he ended up exiled? how does he get around the if/than portion to satisfy the return trigger?
while I realize obzy just ignores the whip and exiles himself (under normal circumstances)
In theory I don't see how he could return himself if somehow the whip did send him away.
Isn't his return from exile a conditional if statement? "if you exile him"? meaning if you exile him with his ability
I would think exiling him through some other means would leave him there
Whether Obzedat, Ghost Council can return from exile is dependent on whether or not the action of exiling it was performed, not necessarily what zone it ended up in.
If a replacement effect replaces Obzedat going from exile to, say, the command zone, the action of exiling it was still performed; it just ended up in the command zone instead of the exile zone. Because of this, it can return to the battlefield as normal.
If it were exiled by some other means (Oblivion Ring), then the action of exiling Obzedat using its own ability is not performed, and so it cannot be returned.
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@Thought Criminal:
You are correct, but your post is misleading. Let's say you have an Obzedat, Ghost Council in the graveyard. Let's say you use Whip of Erebos to put it into play. Then let's say you target it with oblivion ring, and the rings ability resolves. You are right that it will not come back into play during your next upkeep becuase you didn't exile it with Obzedat's own ability. However, if the Oblivion Ring then leaves the battlefield, Obzedat WILL come back into play, because whip's replacement doesn't doesn't interfere with the whipped going to the exile zone. Then the Ring's abilities will take over and put it back into play if the ring leaves the battlefield.
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Whether Obzedat, Ghost Council can return from exile is dependent on whether or not the action of exiling it was performed, not necessarily what zone it ended up in.
If a replacement effect replaces Obzedat going from exile to, say, the command zone, the action of exiling it was still performed; it just ended up in the command zone instead of the exile zone. Because of this, it can return to the battlefield as normal.
If it were exiled by some other means (Oblivion Ring), then the action of exiling Obzedat using its own ability is not performed, and so it cannot be returned.
Got it; it's the timing of the trigger on the whip vs the if statement.
The "if" doesn't care whether the obzy's own exile resolved only that it tried. where as most other forms of exile (like oblivion ring) are happening at a time when obzy isn't already trying to exile himself and the "if" never comes into question
Guy uses Whip of Erebos to reanimate Obzedat, ghost council. then, at end of turn, they want obzedat's ability to work and get it back the other turn. i think the substitution effect of the whip works in this case and he doesnt get creature back the other turn. what happens?
thx
As quoted by others the whip doesn't even try to replace anything because it has the clause anywhere else, so it doesn't care because he is already being exiled.
It's the definition of a replacement effect. The effect says "instead of putting it anywhere else", but it isn't going somewhere else, it's going to exile, so there's no replacement effect to apply to the situation. Your alternate example isn't a functional replacement effect. Exile it instead of what? It still would function the same, though, because there is no event to modify - it's already doing exactly what the replacement effect wants it to do. See rulings related to unearth.
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The wording defines what event the replacement can change.
If it says "exile it instead of puting it anywhere else", the 'anywhere else' means 'anywhere except exile'. It will replace the creature going to any other zone except exile, with going to exile. If the creature is already going to be exiled, the replacement doesn't apply to this event.
Yes. Note that you can also keep it without a Restoration Angel, as the trigger from Whip of Erebos and Obzedat's own trigger will trigger at the same time. Since you control both triggers, you can stack them either way, and if his own ability resolves first and exiles him, the Whip's exile trigger will do nothing and it will return next turn as a new object.
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Am I wrong in thinking that the distinction between the Whip's/unearth's replacement effect applying or not is completely academic and non-functional. Either way it ends up in same zone and Obzedat and other such cards have a zone change trigger that look for them in what ever zone they went to anyways. Untill we get a card that says "if a card where to go to exile put it in it owners graveyard instead" this distinction seems completely non-functional.
while I realize obzy just ignores the whip and exiles himself (under normal circumstances)
In theory I don't see how he could return himself if somehow the whip did send him away.
Isn't his return from exile a conditional if statement? "if you exile him"? meaning if you exile him with his ability
I would think exiling him through some other means would leave him there
If I'm wrong than I guess the follow up question is: what if he gets exiled by an oblivion ring? he can't return himself than can he?
unless he can return himself from exile no matter what put him there the whip (if it could hit him) I would think would leave him there just like any other form of exile (not that it matters in the case of the whip since he avoids it by exiling himself)
Or am I missing something that allows him to return no matter how he ended up exiled? how does he get around the if/than portion to satisfy the return trigger?
Whether Obzedat, Ghost Council can return from exile is dependent on whether or not the action of exiling it was performed, not necessarily what zone it ended up in.
If a replacement effect replaces Obzedat going from exile to, say, the command zone, the action of exiling it was still performed; it just ended up in the command zone instead of the exile zone. Because of this, it can return to the battlefield as normal.
If it were exiled by some other means (Oblivion Ring), then the action of exiling Obzedat using its own ability is not performed, and so it cannot be returned.
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You are correct, but your post is misleading. Let's say you have an Obzedat, Ghost Council in the graveyard. Let's say you use Whip of Erebos to put it into play. Then let's say you target it with oblivion ring, and the rings ability resolves. You are right that it will not come back into play during your next upkeep becuase you didn't exile it with Obzedat's own ability. However, if the Oblivion Ring then leaves the battlefield, Obzedat WILL come back into play, because whip's replacement doesn't doesn't interfere with the whipped going to the exile zone. Then the Ring's abilities will take over and put it back into play if the ring leaves the battlefield.
Famliy Guy Emperor Says,
"Something, something something, DARK SIDE!
Something, something, something COMPLETE!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHiUitciuJ8
:symrw::symrw::symrw::symrw::symrw::symrw:
SPIKE GAYMER: not just a beatdown, a beatdown sung to the tune of "I Feel Pretty"!
Got it; it's the timing of the trigger on the whip vs the if statement.
The "if" doesn't care whether the obzy's own exile resolved only that it tried. where as most other forms of exile (like oblivion ring) are happening at a time when obzy isn't already trying to exile himself and the "if" never comes into question