Each of these cards have abilities that reference the discarded card in order to do something else - Chandra asks if the card is red, the dragon and Blast both look at its CMC. I have read before that since Leng allows you to move the card from one hidden zone (your hand) to another (your Library) that the game can't determine the characteristics needed for those abilities to work.
I am also aware that it still won't work even if you just show your opponent what the card is. My question is, what if the top card of my library is revealed due to some other effect, Melek, Izzet Paragon for example? I have also read that even if cards from a zone are revealed, that zone is still a hidden zone (Telepathy), which would be applicable here.
EDIT: Telepathy doesn't work here except for when it is under my opponent's control.
Well, here's the exact rule:
701.7c If a card is discarded, but an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner's graveyard without being revealed, all values of that card's characteristics are considered to be undefined. If a card is discarded this way to pay a cost that specifies a characteristic about the discarded card, that cost payment is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the cost was paid (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions").
EDIT: RTFC. Because Telepathy/Melek/etc. causes the card to become revealed during the discard event, I believe it would be sufficient for the game to be able to determine the card's characteristics.
EDIT: RTFC. Because Telepathy/Melek/etc. causes the card to become revealed during the discard event, I believe it would be sufficient for the game to be able to determine the card's characteristics.
Nope, and here's why.
400.2 Hidden zones are zones in which not all players can be expected to see the cards' faces. Library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in one such zone happen to be revealed.
So even with telepathy and Melek, the cards are still hidden
We have similar precedents with sylvan library and effects that replace draws.
Note that effects that replace draws don't actually nullify anything about the Library. The reason they work that way is because you have no drawn cards to put back at all, not because you didn't draw from the library
400.2 Hidden zones are zones in which not all players can be expected to see the cards' faces. Library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in one such zone happen to be revealed.
So even with telepathy and Melek, the cards are still hidden
I know what a hidden zone is. The important part of the rule I quoted is this phrase: "an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner's graveyard without being revealed". For example, Progenitus discarded to Chandra Ablaze is going from a hidden zone to a hidden zone, but because it's revealed as part of its own effect when it's discarded, the game can still see that it's red. The point of contention is whether the reveal has to come from an effect pertaining to the discard event itself like Progenitus, or whether the effect of a different card that isn't affected by the discarding like Melek/Telepathy is sufficient.
EDIT: Or, to put it another way:
We control a Chandra Ablaze, a Melek, Izzet Paragon, and a Library of Leng. We activate Chandra's +1 ability, discarding Progenitus. Two replacement effects are applicable, so we choose one to apply.
A) We apply Progenitus's replacement effect, revealing it and shuffling it into our library. Then Chandra's ability resolves.
B) We apply Library of Leng's replacement effect, putting Progenitus on top of our library and simultaneously revealing it. Then Chandra's ability resolves.
Is there a meaningful difference between scenario A) and scenario B)? I don't think there is.
I figured I'd best take a dip into the comp rules for this one, I figured it would fall under this
Except you should read Sylvan Library again.
It doesn't say "draw two cards and for each of those cards, put it back or pay 4 life" it says "At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."
The rest of the effect still happens, and if you drew a card as normal in your draw step or via a Brainstorm during your upkeep, you will have to put two back or pay 4 life for each.
I figured I'd best take a dip into the comp rules for this one, I figured it would fall under this
This isn't applicable because the even though Library has a replacement effect, it is replacing Discarding with discarding but to a weird place; See Oracle text for the card:
Quote from Library of Leng Oracle text »
You have no maximum hand size.
If an effect causes you to discard a card, discard it, but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your graveyard.
This isn't applicable because the even though Library has a replacement effect, it is replacing Discarding with discarding but to a weird place; See Oracle text for the card:
Correct, but wrong Library.
We were discussing Sylvan Library, not Library of Leng
But if you controlled sylvan library, and chose to draw 2 extra cards, but replaced all 3 draws with dredges, you don't have to pay any life or put any cards back. Because the draws have been replaced with another event and the rest of sylvan library's ability becomes impossible it is ignored.
If you apply 614.6 to the original rules query (library of leng) (which the gatherer rulings define as having a replacement effect), once the discard is replaced with putting the card on top of your library, the discard never actualy happens, since that creates impossible instructions in the 3 given examples (Chandra, spellbound dragon, blast of genius) the impossible instructions are simply ignored.
You are completely ignoring the part where I said "The rest of the effect still happens, and if you drew a card as normal in your draw step or via a Brainstorm during your upkeep, you will have to put two back or pay 4 life for each."
Firstly I don't like that this thread is being derailed talking about the wrong rules question, so this will be my last post on this thread mentioning sylvan library.
Secondly I'm well aware that if you drew a card as normal or due to some other effect before or during sylvan library's effect then it is still possible to put cards you've drawn this turn back on top of your library (which you must then do unless you pay 4 life for each card)
I am specifically referring to situations where you elect to take the extra draws, but because you have a replacement effect replacing your card draws with another event your draws never happen (even if it results in cards being pit into your hand).
Therefore because you have not drawn any cards this turn there is nothing to put back, making the second half of sylvan library's ability impossible and allowing you to ignore it.
The examples you gave involving actualy choosing to draw a card, and playing brainstorm in the upkeep had no relevance to what I was trying to say, that is why I ignored them.
So basically, you have spent this entire time repeating what I said in my first post?
Note that effects that replace draws don't actually nullify anything about the Library. The reason they work that way is because you have no drawn cards to put back at all, not because you didn't draw from the library
Well, here's the exact rule:
701.7c If a card is discarded, but an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner's graveyard without being revealed, all values of that card's characteristics are considered to be undefined. If a card is discarded this way to pay a cost that specifies a characteristic about the discarded card, that cost payment is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the cost was paid (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions").
EDIT: RTFC. Because Telepathy/Melek/etc. causes the card to become revealed during the discard event, I believe it would be sufficient for the game to be able to determine the card's characteristics.
This answer is correct. Since the card ends up being revealed, the rule that states that its characteristics are undefined doesn't apply. Therefore, its characteristics are known.
400.2 Hidden zones are zones in which not all players can be expected to see the cards' faces. Library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in one such zone happen to be revealed.
So even with telepathy and Melek, the cards are still hidden
The cards reside in a hidden zone, true enough, but they are revealed. Note that the rule that Jenesis quoted talks about cards in hidden zones that are not revealed.
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Not officially, no. Before I posted, I checked my ruling with a member of the rules team. Neither I nor that member of the rules team remembered the existing official ruling, so we went with an interpretation of the rule that makes sense.
The bolded section seems to say that the characteristics will be undefined in spite of the effects of Melek or Telepathy
Yes, that's what the official ruling says. If you are ever the Head Judge of a tournament where this question comes up, feel free to use the official ruling instead of the sensible ruling. Both rulings are consistent with the wording of the rule despite being opposites of each other.
I'm sure the rule will be clarified as soon as a Library of Leng/Chandra Ablaze/Melek deck starts tearing up the Legacy metagame
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I posed this question over at magicjudge.tumbler.com and got the below answer.
There is currently a debate about Library of Leng, a reveal effect (Melek), and a discard effect(Blast of Genius) on a certain forum board. If the card being discarded is put on top of the library instead of the graveyard, would the game see the characteristics in order to complete the effect? Someone dug up an O ruling dated 2010/2/14 that was specifically asked by you that state it doesn't work. Can you confirm this is still the case? A L2 on the board has sort of said it doesn't. Thanks
701.7c. If a card is discarded, but an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner’s graveyard without being revealed, all values of that card’s characteristics are considered to be undefined. If a card is discarded this way to pay a cost that specifies a characteristic about the discarded card, that cost payment is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the cost was paid (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
It doesn’t know anything about the card. Blast of Genius deals 0 damage.
Thanks to everyone for working this one out. Thanks to tevesh too, I figured 701.7c would probably still apply. I agree with Carsten's asessment that his ruling is the "sensible" one - but I figured without some other rule to give an exception to 701.7c, the Library of Leng would still work with that suite of cards in the way they always have. - That is, not very well at all.
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Each of these cards have abilities that reference the discarded card in order to do something else - Chandra asks if the card is red, the dragon and Blast both look at its CMC. I have read before that since Leng allows you to move the card from one hidden zone (your hand) to another (your Library) that the game can't determine the characteristics needed for those abilities to work.
I am also aware that it still won't work even if you just show your opponent what the card is. My question is, what if the top card of my library is revealed due to some other effect, Melek, Izzet Paragon for example? I have also read that even if cards from a zone are revealed, that zone is still a hidden zone (Telepathy), which would be applicable here.
EDIT: Telepathy doesn't work here except for when it is under my opponent's control.
701.7c If a card is discarded, but an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner's graveyard without being revealed, all values of that card's characteristics are considered to be undefined. If a card is discarded this way to pay a cost that specifies a characteristic about the discarded card, that cost payment is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the cost was paid (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions").
EDIT: RTFC. Because Telepathy/Melek/etc. causes the card to become revealed during the discard event, I believe it would be sufficient for the game to be able to determine the card's characteristics.
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Nope, and here's why.
400.2 Hidden zones are zones in which not all players can be expected to see the cards' faces. Library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in one such zone happen to be revealed.
So even with telepathy and Melek, the cards are still hidden
Note that effects that replace draws don't actually nullify anything about the Library. The reason they work that way is because you have no drawn cards to put back at all, not because you didn't draw from the library
I know what a hidden zone is. The important part of the rule I quoted is this phrase: "an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner's graveyard without being revealed". For example, Progenitus discarded to Chandra Ablaze is going from a hidden zone to a hidden zone, but because it's revealed as part of its own effect when it's discarded, the game can still see that it's red. The point of contention is whether the reveal has to come from an effect pertaining to the discard event itself like Progenitus, or whether the effect of a different card that isn't affected by the discarding like Melek/Telepathy is sufficient.
EDIT: Or, to put it another way:
We control a Chandra Ablaze, a Melek, Izzet Paragon, and a Library of Leng. We activate Chandra's +1 ability, discarding Progenitus. Two replacement effects are applicable, so we choose one to apply.
A) We apply Progenitus's replacement effect, revealing it and shuffling it into our library. Then Chandra's ability resolves.
B) We apply Library of Leng's replacement effect, putting Progenitus on top of our library and simultaneously revealing it. Then Chandra's ability resolves.
Is there a meaningful difference between scenario A) and scenario B)? I don't think there is.
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Except you should read Sylvan Library again.
It doesn't say "draw two cards and for each of those cards, put it back or pay 4 life" it says "At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."
The rest of the effect still happens, and if you drew a card as normal in your draw step or via a Brainstorm during your upkeep, you will have to put two back or pay 4 life for each.
This isn't applicable because the even though Library has a replacement effect, it is replacing Discarding with discarding but to a weird place; See Oracle text for the card:
Correct, but wrong Library.
We were discussing Sylvan Library, not Library of Leng
You are completely ignoring the part where I said "The rest of the effect still happens, and if you drew a card as normal in your draw step or via a Brainstorm during your upkeep, you will have to put two back or pay 4 life for each."
So basically, you have spent this entire time repeating what I said in my first post?
This answer is correct. Since the card ends up being revealed, the rule that states that its characteristics are undefined doesn't apply. Therefore, its characteristics are known.
The cards reside in a hidden zone, true enough, but they are revealed. Note that the rule that Jenesis quoted talks about cards in hidden zones that are not revealed.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Not officially, no. Before I posted, I checked my ruling with a member of the rules team. Neither I nor that member of the rules team remembered the existing official ruling, so we went with an interpretation of the rule that makes sense.
Yes, that's what the official ruling says. If you are ever the Head Judge of a tournament where this question comes up, feel free to use the official ruling instead of the sensible ruling. Both rulings are consistent with the wording of the rule despite being opposites of each other.
I'm sure the rule will be clarified as soon as a Library of Leng/Chandra Ablaze/Melek deck starts tearing up the Legacy metagame
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Hey, Melek is a thing in EDH...
Link for those who want it.
http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/52742334116/there-is-currently-a-debate-about-library-of-leng-a