Voice of Resurgence Trigger Ruling

  • #1
    With the new trigger rules that say as long as knowledge of the trigger is shown when important to the game state, when is it too late to declare a trigger off Voice of Resurgence after a player plays a spell during your turn? After the spell completely resolves, after a new spell is cast or turns change?

    The situation I found myself in was I had a Voice in play and during my turn, my opponant cast a Angel of Restoration targeting his Thragtusk. After the spell had completely resolved and he had a beast token on the field I pointed out the Voice trigger. He claimed that the trigger needs to go on the stack the moment the angel is cast and at the lastest after she resolves. Since her enter the battlefield ability triggered then resolved the game state had moved past a spell being cast and voice could no longer trigger.
  • #2
    This is a question where a judge call would decide what happens as well as what type of event you are at, at a regular event like fnm, you should still get the trigger because you caught it within a turn without any important decision being made. At a competitive event it would depend on how it goes, if they didn't really give you a chance to say your trigger (possibly because you were tappped out and knew you couldn't respond) then you would most likely be allowed to rewind and have your trigger apply. If they gave you ample time to respond before proceeding with their angel or you said it was fine then most likely it would be considered a missed trigger.

    edit: just to be clear, calling a judge is the best opinion whenever you are unsure or their is a dispute.
    Last edited by Rafig: 6/2/2013 9:05:09 PM
  • #3
    Voice triggers when a spell is cast during your turn (whether it resolves or not (due to counter magic)), so you are supposed to be declaring the trigger at the time the spell is cast, but before it resolves.
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  • #4
    At FNM, you get leniency, but at Comp REL, once you let that angel hit the board, you've missed the trigger. The trigger would resolve before the spell that caused said trigger.
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  • #5
    Quote from JarethVarant
    At FNM, you get leniency, but at Comp REL, once you let that angel hit the board, you've missed the trigger. The trigger would resolve before the spell that caused said trigger.


    This is not 100% accurate. At an FNM you should be allowed to to resolve the trigger since at the JAR says you can "unless it happened so long ago that you think it would be very disruptive to the game". In this case no additional decisions have been made based on the trigger having been missed so it would be added to the stack at that point.

    At a competitive level you would definitely want to get a judge involved to help straighten things out. But if your opponent waited for you to respond to the Angel and you said something along the lines of "it resolves" or "yep" etc. Then it would most likely be evidence that you missed the trigger.

    However if your opponent simply played the angel, said "targeting tusk" and went to grab a beast token this would most likely be considered shortcutting in which case you should be able to back the game up to the point you wanted to respond adding the trigger to the stack.

    This is just based on the information provided and a judge would investigate and get it straightened out based on additional info to make sure the right call was made.
  • #6
    Does this fall into the reworking of the trigger ruling because this isn't a may trigger, how can it be missed?

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  • #7
    Quote from DarkKaosKnight
    Does this fall into the reworking of the trigger ruling because this isn't a may trigger, how can it be missed?


    Human beings are not perfect so even triggers that are non optional will be forgotten. In both competitive and regular REL you will generally add the trigger to the stack and at competitive give the player a warning. At regular REL you would go by the JAR which says "add it to the stack now unless it happened so long ago that you think it would be very disruptive
    to the game".

    At competitive REL you would allow the player who doesn't control the trigger to decide to resolve the ability immediately or at the beginning of the next phase, while at a regular REL it is always resolved immediately.

    If the ability is a may ability then it is forgotten when the "player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion". The only difference is that a may ability will not be added to the stack and is simply considered forgotten and at competitive REL a warning will be issued.

    There are situations in which a non-optional trigger won't be added to the stack but those will most always end up being judge calls based on the how far the game state has progressed etc, and are not worth trying to discuss further, but you should be aware that they may come up in tournament play.
  • #8
    Quote from vandread
    Human beings are not perfect so even triggers that are non optional will be forgotten. In both competitive and regular REL you will generally add the trigger to the stack and at competitive give the player a warning. At regular REL you would go by the JAR which says "add it to the stack now unless it happened so long ago that you think it would be very disruptive
    to the game".

    At competitive REL you would allow the player who doesn't control the trigger to decide to resolve the ability immediately or at the beginning of the next phase, while at a regular REL it is always resolved immediately.

    If the ability is a may ability then it is forgotten when the "player controlling the ability doesn't demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion". The only difference is that a may ability will not be added to the stack and is simply considered forgotten and at competitive REL a warning will be issued.

    There are situations in which a non-optional trigger won't be added to the stack but those will most always end up being judge calls based on the how far the game state has progressed etc, and are not worth trying to discuss further, but you should be aware that they may come up in tournament play.


    At comp REL missed triggers do not always go on the stack, they only go on the stack if your opp wishes for it to, they don't get to choose when ( expect in 2 types of triggers), as well that may triggers go on the stack but are ruled that the controller of it opted to the default action (which may need to be done immediately). Also generally you will not receive a penalty for missing your own trigger by accident, unless it is a generally detrimental trigger in which case a warning is most likely to be issued. Tho remember forgetting one on purpose is considered cheating and will be handled as such.

    Edit: note that instance where when it happens is a specific type of trigger
    If the triggered ability specifies a default action associated with a choice made by the controller (usually "If you
    don't ..." or "... unless"), resolve it choosing the default option If the triggered ability is a delayed triggered ability
    that changes the zone of an object, resolve it. For these two types of abilities, the opponent chooses whether to
    resolve the ability immediately or at the start of the next phase
    Last edited by Rafig: 6/4/2013 8:09:26 AM
  • #9
    Quote from JarethVarant
    At FNM, you get leniency, but at Comp REL, once you let that angel hit the board, you've missed the trigger. The trigger would resolve before the spell that caused said trigger.



    Sorry for nitpicking, but couldn't this be a case of Out of Order Sequencing?
    I say this, because the OP pointed the Voice Trigger when the stack was emptied, and not when further actions had been taken (I am also assuming the opponent could be quite rule-lawyering in that spot).


    Quote from "Tournament Rules" »
    4.3 Out of Order Sequencing

    Due to the complexity of accurately representing a game of Magic, it is acceptable for players to engage in a block of actions that, while technically in an incorrect order, arrive at a legal and clearly understood game state once they are complete.

    All actions taken must be legal if they were executed in the correct order, and any opponent can ask the player to do the actions in the correct sequence so that he or she can respond at the appropriate time (at which point players will not be held to any still pending actions).

    An out of order sequence must not result in a player prematurely gaining information which could reasonably affect decisions made later in that sequence.
  • #10
    Quote from JoJoFC
    Sorry for nitpicking, but couldn't this be a case of Out of Order Sequencing?
    I say this, because the OP pointed the Voice Trigger when the stack was emptied, and not when further actions had been taken (I am also assuming the opponent could be quite rule-lawyering in that spot).


    This is where it really comes down to the individual judge at the event. I play competitive all the time and have seen it ruled both ways. It requires the judge to investigate the specific situation a little.

    If it was clear that the player really didn't understand when there trigger would go on the stack, then the judge usually rules this way. However, if the player demonstrates a clear understanding of what should have happened in the correct order then it is usually a missed trigger.
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