Question about Gideon becoming a creature

  • #1
    When he becomes a creature, does he become succeptable to cards like Banishing Stroke? This line of txt is confusing me:

    Gideon, Champion of Justice’s second ability causes him to become a creature with the creature types Human and Soldier. He remains a planeswalker with the planeswalker type Gideon. (He also retains any other card types or subtypes he may have had.) Each subtype is correlated to the proper card type: Gideon is just a planeswalker type (not a creature type), and Human and Soldier are just creature types (not planeswalker types).


    Please use card tags in future posts.
    Kahedron
    Last edited by SpankedEagle: 6/3/2013 3:35:43 PM
  • #2
    yes he can be targeted by any card says target creature during the turn that he is turned into a creature. he is a creature

    edit: to be specific during the turn he is both the planeswalker and creature super type. The statement that is still a planeswalker means he doesn't lose that type when becoming a creature.


    Also the line that you are citing means that if a card cares about a creature type like say "destroy all cards of a creature type of your choice" then they can't choose Gideon cause it is not a creature type.
    Last edited by Rafig: 6/2/2013 2:58:22 PM
  • #3
    Quote from Rafig
    Also the line that you are citing means that if a card cares about a creature type like say "destroy all cards of a creature type of your choice" then they can't choose Gideon cause it is not a creature type.

    It also clarification that you won't have to put Gideon in your graveyard just because you're controlling another Soldier or Human (as those aren't Planeswalker types, but Creature types) to the Planeswalker Uniqueness Rule.

    704.5j If two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type are on the battlefield, all are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the “planeswalker uniqueness rule.”
  • #4
    Searched for a thread that could answer my question, but the closest I could find was this one, so I'm going to add a few inquiries about Gideon.

    Scenario 1
    Playing Planechase, my playgroup walks onto Immersturm. My opponent has a Gideon, Champion of Justice on the board with 2 loyal counters and activates his 0 ability. He rolls Chaos and flickers Gideon.

    Two questions:
    1) Because Gideon flickers, does he return with his base loyalty?
    2) When Gideon flickers back in, does he return as a Planeswalker without triggering Immersturm?

    Scenario 2
    This time, I have Gideon Jura on the board and I activate his 0 ability. I cast Progenitor Mimic, targeting Gideon.

    Two questions:
    1) Will my Progenitor Mimic survive being a copy of Gideon since he comes in as a 6/6 Human Soldier creature?
    2) If he does survive, does that mean I can more or less have an army of "Gideon"?
  • #5
    Quote from Bracador
    Scenario 1
    Playing Planechase, my playgroup walks onto Immersturm. My opponent has a Gideon, Champion of Justice on the board with 2 loyal counters and activates his 0 ability. He rolls Chaos and flickers Gideon.

    Two questions:
    1) Because Gideon flickers, does he return with his base loyalty?
    yes
    306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, “This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number.” This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
    Quote from Bracador
    2) When Gideon flickers back in, does he return as a Planeswalker without triggering Immersturm?
    yes
    400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.
    Quote from Bracador
    Scenario 2
    This time, I have Gideon Jura on the board and I activate his 0 ability. I cast Progenitor Mimic, targeting Gideon.

    Two questions:
    1) Will my Progenitor Mimic survive being a copy of Gideon since he comes in as a 6/6 Human Soldier creature?
    no, both* will be put in the graveyard because you have two permanents of type Planeswalker and subtype Gideon on the battlefield
    Until end of turn, Gideon Jura becomes a 6/6 Human Soldier creature that's still a planeswalker.
    704.5j If two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type are on the battlefield, all are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the “planeswalker uniqueness rule.”
    and as it happens, for the brief moments that your Progenitor Mimic/Gideon Jura is on the field, it is not a creature nor is it a human soldier nor is it 6/6
    706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The “copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
    Quote from Bracador

    2) If he does survive, does that mean I can more or less have an army of "Gideon"?
    n/a

    * until the M14 changes where one of your choice will remain
    Last edited by ToddB: 6/3/2013 11:26:07 AM
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  • #6
    Quote from Bracador
    Searched for a thread that could answer my question, but the closest I could find was this one, so I'm going to add a few inquiries about Gideon.

    Scenario 1
    Playing Planechase, my playgroup walks onto Immersturm. My opponent has a Gideon, Champion of Justice on the board with 2 loyal counters and activates his 0 ability. He rolls Chaos and flickers Gideon.

    Two questions:
    1) Because Gideon flickers, does he return with his base loyalty?
    2) When Gideon flickers back in, does he return as a Planeswalker without triggering Immersturm?


    1) When Gideon returns he will be a completely new planeswalker so will have his base loyalty.

    2) He is not entering as a planeswalker not a creature so Immerstum will not trigger again.


    Scenario 2
    This time, I have Gideon Jura on the board and I activate his 0 ability. I cast Progenitor Mimic, targeting Gideon.

    Two questions:
    1) Will my Progenitor Mimic survive being a copy of Gideon since he comes in as a 6/6 Human Soldier creature?
    2) If he does survive, does that mean I can more or less have an army of "Gideon"?


    There is a misconception here and the answer is due to change when the M14 rules update occurs.

    To clear up the misconception the mimic is not going to come in as a creature it will come in as a planeswalker with 6 loyalty counters. When you copy a game object represented by a card you get a complete copy of the card, you do not gain the benefit of any abilities that are affecting the card like the animation ability on gideon.

    AS to whether you keep them currently both will get shipped to the graveyard due to the planeswalker uniqueness rule as you will control 2 planeswalkers with the same subtype.

    After the M14 rules update you will choose one of the planeswalkers to keep and the other one will be sent to the graveyard due to the planeswalker uniqueness rule.


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  • #7
    Thank you for the hasty answers, 2goth4U.

    Can you explain to me why the Progenitor Mimic does not survive? I'm not sure exactly how Planeswalker Uniqueness & Legendary Creature rules work for Gideon's soldier form and clones, but I had an inkling that my army of Gideons wasn't a possibility. Frown

    Also, if I do have to destroy one or the other, can I choose to destroy my Gideon Jura planeswalker instead of the Progenitor Mimic? What will remain of the Mimic's state by the next turn?

    EDIT: Never mind. Thank you for the clarification, Kahedron.
  • #8
    Quote from Bracador
    Also, if I do have to destroy one or the other, can I choose to destroy my Gideon Jura planeswalker instead of the Progenitor Mimic? What will remain of the Mimic's state by the next turn?


    To be clear, currently both will be put in the graveyard immediately (before you can activate any abilities of the Progenitor-Gideon).

    When the M14 rules changes kick in next month, you'll put one of them, of your choice, into the graveyard (again, this will happen immediately, so you won't get to use any abilities from the Progenitor-Gideon unless it's the one you choose to keep). If you keep the Progenitor-Gideon, it will be exactly a Gideon Jura, plus the "make a copy" ability that Progenitor Mimic gains when it copies something.
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  • #9
    Thank you all for your quick responses. That certainly cleared up all my Gideon clone curiosity. And, yes, I've already been using the M14 rules since I only ever play casually with my playgroup (if the Planechase scenario wasn't enough clue).
  • #10
    Quote from Bracador
    Also, if I do have to destroy one or the other, can I choose to destroy my Gideon Jura planeswalker instead of the Progenitor Mimic? What will remain of the Mimic's state by the next turn?
    note: destroy has specific rules-meaning in Magic

    in this interaction, the planeswalker(s) will neither be destroyed nor be sacrificed, rather they (or it) are merely put in the graveyard
    Last edited by ToddB: 6/3/2013 11:55:09 AM
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  • #11
    Quote from 2goth4U
    note: destroy has specific rules-meaning in Magic

    in this interaction, the planeswalker(s) will neither be destroyed nor be sacrificed, rather they (or it) are merely put in the graveyard

    Ah, that's right. Thanks.

    I was mixed up by the another Gideon thread asking about Mirroweaving an artifact Jace with creature Gideon and how the put in graveyard effect was an important differentiation from a sacrifice effect.

    I forgot that put in graveyard can be different from destroy, too.
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