Odd little story ill tell, but I thought id ask anyway.
At sometime after the second round I had lost a card from my sideboard that had been found and turned in to the front of the store.
Round 3 started and we began the game and I won the first match. We sideboarded and at that time the judge came over and asked to check both of our decks. And after said deck check called me over and told me I had to take a game loss.
So here are my questions:
1. What is the full rule on deck presentation? Does a card missing from the sideboard matter as well. The head judge had mentioned the sideboard must contain 0 or 15 cards, and that all must be present at the start of the match, that officially players are supposed to check each others deck and sideboard before hand.
2. If the store's owner (and a judge/TO) had indeed found the card during the second round (and after my 2nd round match was completed, should they have tried to get the card back to me before the third round?
3. Since the card was missing from my deck, should I have noted it missing and. Notified the judges prior to starting the match? What exactly could they have done?
4. So here's the part that bugs me the most. If the card had been stolen, as opposed to lost, they never would have had my deck checked (as of this point in the tournament). So do I deserve a game loss?
5. Since its a card missing from my sideboard, and is a card that I have an option of playing if I want (as opposed to a card that has to be in my 60 card deck), could I choose not to play it, and never have had a problem?
I just feel <snip> guys. I got a game loss because I didn't have a card on me that was not going to affect the game state. Thanks
Slurs are not permitted by the Forum Rules. Post edited. ~ Hendrik
1. It allows me to express multiple thoughts without a need to write an essay or make multiple posts. 2. I tend to have multiple thoughts at the same time. 3. Having the right first opinion is sometimes more glorious than having a grammatically correct second opinion. 4. It allows you as a reader to pick out the most erroneous point and counter-comment, allowing you the chance to express an opinion and look like a sensible person when I sound like a dummy.
3.9. Tournament Error — Deck/Decklist Problem
Definition
A player commits one or more of the following errors involving their deck:
• The deck and/or decklist contain an illegal number of cards for the format.
• The deck and/or decklist contain one or more cards that are illegal for the format.
• A card listed on a decklist is not identified by its full name, and could be interpreted as more than one card.
Truncated names of storyline characters (legendary permanents and Planeswalkers) are acceptable as long
as they are the only representation of that character in the format and should be treated as referring to that
card, even if other cards begin with the same name.
• The contents of the presented deck and sideboard do not match the decklist registered.
Sideboards are considered to be a part of the deck for the purpose of this infraction. If sideboard cards are lost, make
a note of this, but issue no penalty.
This infraction does not cover errors in registration made by another participant prior to a sealed pool swap, which
should be corrected at the discretion of the judge.
Examples
A. A player has 59 cards in her deck, but 60 listed on the decklist.
B. A player in a Legacy tournament lists Mana Drain (a banned card) on his decklist.
C. A player has a 56-card decklist. His actual deck contains 60 cards, with four Psychatogs not listed.
D. A player has a Pacifism in his deck from a previous opponent.
E. A player lists ‘Ajani’ in a format with both Ajani Goldmane and Ajani Vengeant
F. A player looking at her sideboard during a game fails to keep it clearly separate from her deck.
Philosophy
Decklists are used to ensure that decks are not altered in the course of a tournament. Judges and other tournament
officials should be vigilant about reminding players before the tournament begins of the importance of submitting a
legal decklist, and playing with a legal deck.
In large events, the DCI recommends that tournament officials verify the legality of all lists as soon as possible, but
the Head Judge should wait until the start of the next round to issue all decklist penalties unless there is reason to
believe the deck itself is illegal. This minimizes the disruption to the game currently being played and provides
consistency in case some players have finished playing their match before the penalty can be administered.
Ambiguous or unclear names on a decklist may allow a player to manipulate the contents of his or her deck up until
the point at which they are discovered. Use of a truncated name that is not unique may be downgraded to a Warning
at the Head Judge’s discretion if he or she believes that the intended card is obvious and the potential for abuse
minimal. When determining if a name is ambiguous, judges may take into account the format being played.
If the sideboard is not kept sufficiently separate from the deck during play, it becomes impossible to determine the
legality of the deck. Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played
in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard unless they are:
• Promotional cards that have been handed out as part of the tournament.
• Double-faced cards represented by checklist cards in the deck.
• Double-faced cards being used to represent the ‘night’ side of cards in the deck.
Penalty
Game Loss17
These cards must not be sleeved in the same way as cards in the main deck and/or sideboard.
Additional Remedy
Remove any cards from the deck that are illegal for the format or violate the maximum number allowed, fix any
failures to de-sideboard, restore any missing cards if they (or identical replacements) can be located, then alter the
decklist to reflect the remaining deck. If the remaining deck has too few cards, add basic lands of the player’s choice
to reach the minimum number. If the deck and decklist both violate a maximum cards restriction (usually too many
cards in a sideboard or more than four of a card), remove cards starting from the bottom of the appropriate section of
the list.
If the player, upon drawing an opening hand, discovers a deck problem and calls a judge at that point, the Head
Judge may downgrade the penalty, fix the deck, and allow the player to redraw the hand with one fewer card. The
player may continue to take further mulligans if he or she desires.
My first thought was that, yes, this is a deck/decklist error, for which the penalty is a game loss. However, reading over it, I came across this:
Quote from IPG »
Sideboards are considered to be a part of the deck for the purpose of this infraction. If sideboard cards are lost, make a note of this, but issue no penalty.
From this, it is pretty straight forward that no, a game loss should not have been issued here. Unfortunately, looking through the IPG, I can't find the remedy for this situation.
If the owner was able to determine that the card was yours between rounds, I see no reason for him not to return the card to you. Also, if you had realized you were short a card in your board, yes, you should call a judge immediately and inform them of the situation.
Like I said, a game loss was the wrong penalty. But I don't see a precedent for how to fix the situation. Does anyone know the precedent or remedy here? -Jack
Unlike a situation where a player could "accidentally" lose a card from their deck and be playing a 59 card deck, losing a sideboard card has no potential for advantage. If, when the error was discovered, the missing card could be relocated, I would simply allow the player to return that card to their sideboard, where there decklist says it should be. Otherwise, just replace it with a basic land.
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DCI Level 2 Judge
If your question is "What would a judge do is this situation?", only one person's answer is relevant, and that is the Head Judge at your event. I can quote the rules, but I don't know your HJ.
I would like to additionally point out that the full remedy to this situation should involve a few steps.
1. During the deck check if you determine that a sideboard card is missing then you should determine which card it is.
2. The player should be allowed to try and locate the registered card or an identical replacement.
3. If the original or a replacement cannot be found then the player will be required to replace it with a basic land.
All of this is can be found in the additional remedy area of the guide posted by H1jAck. Relevant text posted below for clarity.
Remove any cards from the deck that are illegal for the format or violate the maximum number allowed, fix any failures to de-sideboard, restore any missing cards if they (or identical replacements) can be located, then alter the decklist to reflect the remaining deck. If the remaining deck has too few cards, add basic lands of the player’s choice to reach the minimum number.
**Regarding the penalty I think it was erroneous based on the information provided by the OP**
Tournament Error (TE) - Deck/Deck List Problem (DDLP) - Game Loss (GL) - Player had 14 card sideboard, missing card replaced.
Sounds about right to me. For everyone claiming "there's no room for abuse" you're forgetting that there is. I could present a 15 card sideboard, while my deck contained 59 cards. Not the biggest abuse ever, but still abusive. Or I could "side" in something from outside the game when I see who I'm playing each round. Also, the OP had a chance to avoid a game loss by bringing the error to a judges attention before he could potentially abuse the error.
A simple pile shuffle, along with a count of the sideboard would have brought this to your attention, and given you the chance to see if the card might have been turned in, or to see if it could be replaced. Maybe you'll get a game loss for tardiness, or maybe the head judge will grant you a time extension, to see if you can replace the missing card.
We don't issue penalties just because you messed up, we also do it as a deterrent to others, and what deterrent is there if players can just claim "well, isn't a basic land penalty enough?" Take the game loss like a champ, learn from it, and move on.
EDIT: H1jAck and vandread are correct. I didn't take into account the line about missing sideboard cards.
We don't issue penalties just because you messed up, we also do it as a deterrent to others, and what deterrent is there if players can just claim "well, isn't a basic land penalty enough?" Take the game loss like a champ, learn from it, and move on.
While it is a good precedent to other players to enforce the rules as written, there is the stipulation that if it's an accident, a game loss should not be given. This is where the hard part of being a judge comes in; an investigation. Judges should be trained to some extent to figure out when a player is lying, and especially at a smaller event at a local store, the TO/judge will probably know the players well enough to determine if it was an accident or not.
Again, it's good to have a precedent to avoid cheating, but at the same time, you don't want to scare players away from having fun. If players think they will get a game loss for something accidental, they may be more careful, but they may also just be afraid to play at the store. Part of being a judge is fostering a fun environment and protecting the integrity of the tournament. By the situation described, and if an investigation did not prove otherwise, I see no reason to issue a game loss. -Jack
Tournament Error (TE) - Deck/Deck List Problem (DDLP) - Game Loss (GL) - Player had 14 card sideboard, missing card replaced.
Sounds about right to me. For everyone claiming "there's no room for abuse" you're forgetting that there is. I could present a 15 card sideboard, while my deck contained 59 cards. Not the biggest abuse ever, but still abusive. Or I could "side" in something from outside the game when I see who I'm playing each round. Also, the OP had a chance to avoid a game loss by bringing the error to a judges attention before he could potentially abuse the error.
A simple pile shuffle, along with a count of the sideboard would have brought this to your attention, and given you the chance to see if the card might have been turned in, or to see if it could be replaced. Maybe you'll get a game loss for tardiness, or maybe the head judge will grant you a time extension, to see if you can replace the missing card.
We don't issue penalties just because you messed up, we also do it as a deterrent to others, and what deterrent is there if players can just claim "well, isn't a basic land penalty enough?" Take the game loss like a champ, learn from it, and move on.
I still don't agree with this. The op never stated that decks had been presented for their second game thus it cannot be assumed that he wouldn't have called the judge, just that during sideboarding a judge came over and checked the decks.
If you find that all cards present are on the registered list, except the one missing, and that no additional cards are being stored with the sideboard/deck then I see no reason that the sections of the IPG that H1jAck and myself have pointed out would not apply.
Specifically the fact that the OP registered 15 cards for his sideboard and assuming no obvious indications of abuse (the aforementioned additional cards stored with the sb) then it is reasonable to assume the card has become lost thus falling under:
Sideboards are considered to be a part of the deck for the purpose of this infraction. If sideboard cards are lost, make a note of this, but issue no penalty.
And then being resolved by the steps of my last post.
I still don't agree with this. The op never stated that decks had been presented for their second game thus it cannot be assumed that he wouldn't have called the judge, just that during sideboarding a judge came over and checked the decks.
We could assume the judge did deck check them in the middle of sideboarding, or that he waited for them to present. I'm just assuming it was checked upon presentation since that's what is expected of us, but just like my errors, people make mistakes, so who knows what really happened?
If you find that all cards present are on the registered list, except the one missing, and that no additional cards are being stored with the sideboard/deck then I see no reason that the sections of the IPG that H1jAck and myself have pointed out would not apply.
Specifically the fact that the OP registered 15 cards for his sideboard and assuming no obvious indications of abuse (the aforementioned additional cards stored with the sb) then it is reasonable to assume the card has become lost thus falling under:
Sideboards are considered to be a part of the deck for the purpose of this infraction. If sideboard cards are lost, make a note of this, but issue no penalty.
And then being resolved by the steps of my last post.
As for the rest, I agree. I made an error.
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At sometime after the second round I had lost a card from my sideboard that had been found and turned in to the front of the store.
Round 3 started and we began the game and I won the first match. We sideboarded and at that time the judge came over and asked to check both of our decks. And after said deck check called me over and told me I had to take a game loss.
So here are my questions:
1. What is the full rule on deck presentation? Does a card missing from the sideboard matter as well. The head judge had mentioned the sideboard must contain 0 or 15 cards, and that all must be present at the start of the match, that officially players are supposed to check each others deck and sideboard before hand.
2. If the store's owner (and a judge/TO) had indeed found the card during the second round (and after my 2nd round match was completed, should they have tried to get the card back to me before the third round?
3. Since the card was missing from my deck, should I have noted it missing and. Notified the judges prior to starting the match? What exactly could they have done?
4. So here's the part that bugs me the most. If the card had been stolen, as opposed to lost, they never would have had my deck checked (as of this point in the tournament). So do I deserve a game loss?
5. Since its a card missing from my sideboard, and is a card that I have an option of playing if I want (as opposed to a card that has to be in my 60 card deck), could I choose not to play it, and never have had a problem?
I just feel <snip> guys. I got a game loss because I didn't have a card on me that was not going to affect the game state. Thanks
Slurs are not permitted by the Forum Rules. Post edited. ~ Hendrik
1. It allows me to express multiple thoughts without a need to write an essay or make multiple posts.
2. I tend to have multiple thoughts at the same time.
3. Having the right first opinion is sometimes more glorious than having a grammatically correct second opinion.
4. It allows you as a reader to pick out the most erroneous point and counter-comment, allowing you the chance to express an opinion and look like a sensible person when I sound like a dummy.
Definition
A player commits one or more of the following errors involving their deck:
• The deck and/or decklist contain an illegal number of cards for the format.
• The deck and/or decklist contain one or more cards that are illegal for the format.
• A card listed on a decklist is not identified by its full name, and could be interpreted as more than one card.
Truncated names of storyline characters (legendary permanents and Planeswalkers) are acceptable as long
as they are the only representation of that character in the format and should be treated as referring to that
card, even if other cards begin with the same name.
• The contents of the presented deck and sideboard do not match the decklist registered.
Sideboards are considered to be a part of the deck for the purpose of this infraction. If sideboard cards are lost, make
a note of this, but issue no penalty.
This infraction does not cover errors in registration made by another participant prior to a sealed pool swap, which
should be corrected at the discretion of the judge.
Examples
A. A player has 59 cards in her deck, but 60 listed on the decklist.
B. A player in a Legacy tournament lists Mana Drain (a banned card) on his decklist.
C. A player has a 56-card decklist. His actual deck contains 60 cards, with four Psychatogs not listed.
D. A player has a Pacifism in his deck from a previous opponent.
E. A player lists ‘Ajani’ in a format with both Ajani Goldmane and Ajani Vengeant
F. A player looking at her sideboard during a game fails to keep it clearly separate from her deck.
Philosophy
Decklists are used to ensure that decks are not altered in the course of a tournament. Judges and other tournament
officials should be vigilant about reminding players before the tournament begins of the importance of submitting a
legal decklist, and playing with a legal deck.
In large events, the DCI recommends that tournament officials verify the legality of all lists as soon as possible, but
the Head Judge should wait until the start of the next round to issue all decklist penalties unless there is reason to
believe the deck itself is illegal. This minimizes the disruption to the game currently being played and provides
consistency in case some players have finished playing their match before the penalty can be administered.
Ambiguous or unclear names on a decklist may allow a player to manipulate the contents of his or her deck up until
the point at which they are discovered. Use of a truncated name that is not unique may be downgraded to a Warning
at the Head Judge’s discretion if he or she believes that the intended card is obvious and the potential for abuse
minimal. When determining if a name is ambiguous, judges may take into account the format being played.
If the sideboard is not kept sufficiently separate from the deck during play, it becomes impossible to determine the
legality of the deck. Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played
in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard unless they are:
• Promotional cards that have been handed out as part of the tournament.
• Double-faced cards represented by checklist cards in the deck.
• Double-faced cards being used to represent the ‘night’ side of cards in the deck.
Penalty
Game Loss17
These cards must not be sleeved in the same way as cards in the main deck and/or sideboard.
Additional Remedy
Remove any cards from the deck that are illegal for the format or violate the maximum number allowed, fix any
failures to de-sideboard, restore any missing cards if they (or identical replacements) can be located, then alter the
decklist to reflect the remaining deck. If the remaining deck has too few cards, add basic lands of the player’s choice
to reach the minimum number. If the deck and decklist both violate a maximum cards restriction (usually too many
cards in a sideboard or more than four of a card), remove cards starting from the bottom of the appropriate section of
the list.
If the player, upon drawing an opening hand, discovers a deck problem and calls a judge at that point, the Head
Judge may downgrade the penalty, fix the deck, and allow the player to redraw the hand with one fewer card. The
player may continue to take further mulligans if he or she desires.
My first thought was that, yes, this is a deck/decklist error, for which the penalty is a game loss. However, reading over it, I came across this:
From this, it is pretty straight forward that no, a game loss should not have been issued here. Unfortunately, looking through the IPG, I can't find the remedy for this situation.
If the owner was able to determine that the card was yours between rounds, I see no reason for him not to return the card to you. Also, if you had realized you were short a card in your board, yes, you should call a judge immediately and inform them of the situation.
Like I said, a game loss was the wrong penalty. But I don't see a precedent for how to fix the situation. Does anyone know the precedent or remedy here? -Jack
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If your question is "What would a judge do is this situation?", only one person's answer is relevant, and that is the Head Judge at your event. I can quote the rules, but I don't know your HJ.
1. During the deck check if you determine that a sideboard card is missing then you should determine which card it is.
2. The player should be allowed to try and locate the registered card or an identical replacement.
3. If the original or a replacement cannot be found then the player will be required to replace it with a basic land.
All of this is can be found in the additional remedy area of the guide posted by H1jAck. Relevant text posted below for clarity.
Remove any cards from the deck that are illegal for the format or violate the maximum number allowed, fix any failures to de-sideboard, restore any missing cards if they (or identical replacements) can be located, then alter the decklist to reflect the remaining deck. If the remaining deck has too few cards, add basic lands of the player’s choice to reach the minimum number.
**Regarding the penalty I think it was erroneous based on the information provided by the OP**
Tournament Error (TE) - Deck/Deck List Problem (DDLP) - Game Loss (GL) - Player had 14 card sideboard, missing card replaced.
Sounds about right to me. For everyone claiming "there's no room for abuse" you're forgetting that there is. I could present a 15 card sideboard, while my deck contained 59 cards. Not the biggest abuse ever, but still abusive. Or I could "side" in something from outside the game when I see who I'm playing each round. Also, the OP had a chance to avoid a game loss by bringing the error to a judges attention before he could potentially abuse the error.
A simple pile shuffle, along with a count of the sideboard would have brought this to your attention, and given you the chance to see if the card might have been turned in, or to see if it could be replaced. Maybe you'll get a game loss for tardiness, or maybe the head judge will grant you a time extension, to see if you can replace the missing card.
We don't issue penalties just because you messed up, we also do it as a deterrent to others, and what deterrent is there if players can just claim "well, isn't a basic land penalty enough?" Take the game loss like a champ, learn from it, and move on.
EDIT: H1jAck and vandread are correct. I didn't take into account the line about missing sideboard cards.
Again, it's good to have a precedent to avoid cheating, but at the same time, you don't want to scare players away from having fun. If players think they will get a game loss for something accidental, they may be more careful, but they may also just be afraid to play at the store. Part of being a judge is fostering a fun environment and protecting the integrity of the tournament. By the situation described, and if an investigation did not prove otherwise, I see no reason to issue a game loss. -Jack While it is a good precedent to other players to enforce the rules as written, there is the stipulation that if it's an accident, a game loss should not be given. This is where the hard part of being a judge comes in; an investigation. Judges should be trained to some extent to figure out when a player is lying, and especially at a smaller event at a local store, the TO/judge will probably know the players well enough to determine if it was an accident or not.
Want a cool banner like mine?
Go to Heroes of the Plane Studios!
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I still don't agree with this. The op never stated that decks had been presented for their second game thus it cannot be assumed that he wouldn't have called the judge, just that during sideboarding a judge came over and checked the decks.
If you find that all cards present are on the registered list, except the one missing, and that no additional cards are being stored with the sideboard/deck then I see no reason that the sections of the IPG that H1jAck and myself have pointed out would not apply.
Specifically the fact that the OP registered 15 cards for his sideboard and assuming no obvious indications of abuse (the aforementioned additional cards stored with the sb) then it is reasonable to assume the card has become lost thus falling under:
Sideboards are considered to be a part of the deck for the purpose of this infraction. If sideboard cards are lost, make a note of this, but issue no penalty.
And then being resolved by the steps of my last post.
We could assume the judge did deck check them in the middle of sideboarding, or that he waited for them to present. I'm just assuming it was checked upon presentation since that's what is expected of us, but just like my errors, people make mistakes, so who knows what really happened?
As for the rest, I agree. I made an error.