If I play an Angel of Serenity targeting 3 of the creatures in my graveyard can the opponent play a Cyclonic Rift in response on my AoS, thus permanently exiling my three targeted creatures?
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
Yes, kind of.
If you read the Angel, it says you "May" exile those cards, so when the ability resolves you can just choose not to exile the cards at all.
Yes, kind of.
If you read the Angel, it says you "May" exile those cards, so when the ability resolves you can just choose not to exile the cards at all.
You'd have chosen your targets and the ability would already be on the stack before the Cyclonic Rift was even played. So it locks you in on your decision and no takesies backsies.
Hang on checking the card.
I'll stick with that thought, I look at the may as a choice on whether or not you want that ability to go on the stack rather than having it as a final decision to push through.
You'd have chosen your targets and the ability would already be on the stack before the Cyclonic Rift was even played. So it locks you in on your decision and no takesies backsies.
Hang on checking the card.
I'll stick with that thought, I look at the may as a choice on whether or not you want that ability to go on the stack rather than having it as a final decision to push through.
This is not right. Targeting happens when something goes onto the stack because it is listed among the things you do when casting a spell, activating an ability or stacking a triggered ability. The same is not true for the choice of whether to make use of a "may" effect. That choice is made on resolution.
Also, it doesn't matter how you look at it, it matters what the Comprehensive Rules say.
You'd have chosen your targets and the ability would already be on the stack before the Cyclonic Rift was even played. So it locks you in on your decision and no takesies backsies.
Hang on checking the card.
I'll stick with that thought, I look at the may as a choice on whether or not you want that ability to go on the stack rather than having it as a final decision to push through.
It says you may exile the targets, not you may choose targets then must exile them. for that to be, it would be worded something like "When X enters the battlefield, you may choose three other target creatures from the battlefield and/or creature cards from graveyards and exile them."
The "May" is linked to the exile, not the target choosing.
You might want to look at it that way, but the ability must go on the stack, and you must choose your targets as it does so. You choose whether or not to do so as the ability resolves.
See Restoration Angel + Phantasmal Image, whereby if your only non-Angel creature is a Phantasmal Image when you cast the Angel, you must target the Image and its ability will trigger, regardless of whether you want to actually use the ability when it resolves.
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This is not right. Targeting happens when something goes onto the stack because it is listed among the things you do when casting a spell, activating an ability or stacking a triggered ability. The same is not true for the choice of whether to make use of a "may" effect. That choice is made on resolution.
Also, it doesn't matter how you look at it, it matters what the Comprehensive Rules say.
Let's establish that I did say you have to choose targets on it going on the stack.
I appreciate the correction, I do not appreciate the snarky attitude. Last time I checked I was entitled to an opinion and am allowed to be incorrect from time to time.
@Nukeman
Thanks for giving an example of how it would be worded for the effect, that helped clarify.
Let's establish that I did say you have to choose targets on it going on the stack.
I appreciate the correction, I do not appreciate the snarky attitude. Last time I checked I was entitled to an opinion and am allowed to be incorrect from time to time.
@Nukeman
Thanks for giving an example of how it would be worded for the effect, that helped clarify.
We all make mistakes. I have made it a habit to thank people who correct me in these rules threads, so if you want to, you could check out my bad answers by seeing what posts I have given thanks for.
I didn't mean to bash you. I wanted to point out that Magic game rules are not subject to interpretation (since you said "I look at the may as a choice on...", which implies personal interpretation), since there is only one correct way to interpret the Comprehensive Rules. Sorry about that.
It says you may exile the targets, not you may choose targets then must exile them. for that to be, it would be worded something like "When X enters the battlefield, you may choose three other target creatures from the battlefield and/or creature cards from graveyards and exile them."
The "May" is linked to the exile, not the target choosing.
sorry I'm still confused
so with my previous example in mind what your saying is when the cyclonic rift targets my angel, when it resolves I can choose not to exile my 3 targeted creatures?
sorry I'm still confused
so with my previous example in mind what your saying is when the cyclonic rift targets my angel, when it resolves I can choose not to exile my 3 targeted creatures?
Yes, that is right. The choice of whether you want to exile them is made when the triggered ability resolves, as with all activated and triggered abilities that use the word "may".
We all make mistakes. I have made it a habit to thank people who correct me in these rules threads, so if you want to, you could check out my bad answers by seeing what posts I have given thanks for.
I didn't mean to bash you. I wanted to point out that Magic game rules are not subject to interpretation (since you said "I look at the may as a choice on...", which implies personal interpretation), since there is only one correct way to interpret the Comprehensive Rules. Sorry about that.
It's alright, at least that's been clarified, better I've been corrected than my incorrect post misinforming other players.
Cheers.
sorry I'm still confused
so with my previous example in mind what your saying is when the cyclonic rift targets my angel, when it resolves I can choose not to exile my 3 targeted creatures?
Indeed, that would be the case. The final decision on that "may" is made on resolution as mentioned by the others.
Angel of Serenity
"When Angel of Serenity enters the battlefield, you may exile up to three other target creatures from the battlefield and/or creature cards from graveyards.
When Angel of Serenity leaves the battlefield, return the exiled cards to their owners' hands." Cyclonic Rift
"Return target nonland permanent you don't control to its owner's hand."
Situation: You play Angel of Serenity, targeting up to 3 creatures from the battlefield or graveyards when her EtB ability triggers.
If your opponent plays Cyclonic Rift at this point to return your Angel of Serenity to your hand, her leaves the battlefield triggered ability resolves, returning no creatures to hands. Then her triggered ability to exile up to 3 creatures will continue to resolve, permanently exiling the creatures you targeted.
If your opponent plays Cyclonic Rift after her first ability resolves, then her leaves the battlefield trigger will resolve normally, returning your targets to your hand.
Situation: You play Angel of Serenity targeting up to 3 creatures from the battlefield or graveyards when her EtB ability triggers.
If your opponent plays Cyclonic Rift at this point to return your Angel of Serenity to your hand, her leaves the battlefield triggered ability resolves, returning no creatures to your hand and then her triggered ability to exile up to 3 creatures will continue to resolve, permanently exiling the creatures you targeted.
No, this is wrong.
Her ability is a "may" ability, so you don't have to exile anything unless you want to, and you don't choose until it resolves.
So unless you WANT your cards gone, you can just choose not to exile them
Whether to use a "may" effect happens on resolution. As you can see in the first quote, you do not select whether to use the "may" effect on casting a spell, activating an activated ability or stacking a triggered ability. The second quote shows us that it happens on resolution.
Quote from Magic: the Gathering Comprehensive Rules (2012-10-01) »
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.
601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.45), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it's being cast such as buyback, kicker, or convoke costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can't apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it's being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making these choices.
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
Example: If a spell says "Tap two target creatures," then the same creature can't be chosen twice; the spell requires two different legal targets. A spell that says "Destroy target artifact and target land," however, can target the same artifact land twice because it uses the word "target" in multiple places.
601.2d If the spell requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division. Each of these targets must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.
601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
601.2f If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, "Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
601.2g The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can't be paid.
Example: You cast Altar's Reap, which costs {1}{B} and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost {1} less to cast. Because a spell's total cost is "locked in" before payments are actually made, you pay {B}, not {1}{B}, even though you're sacrificing the Familiar.
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a-g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell's controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
Quote from Magic: the Gathering Comprehensive Rules (2012-10-01) »
608.2d If an effect of a spell or ability offers any choices other than choices already made as part of casting the spell, activating the ability, or otherwise putting the spell or ability on the stack, the player announces these while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's illegal or impossible, with the exception that having library with no cards in it doesn't make drawing a card an impossible action (see rule 120.3). If an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among any number of untargeted players and/or objects, the player chooses the amount and division such that at least one player or object is chosen if able, and each chosen player or object receives at least one of whatever is being divided. (Note that if an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among some number of target objects and/or players, the amount and division were determined as the spell or ability was put onto the stack rather than at this time; see rule 601.2d.)
Example: A spell's instruction reads, "You may sacrifice a creature. If you don't, you lose 4 life." A player who controls no creatures can't choose the sacrifice option.
Because the number of targets is up to you, the Gatherer entry is assuming you targeted those objects in the first place because you actually intended to exile them. It's just written that way for the sake of simplicity.
It's also worth noting that Gatherer rulings are for clarification, and are not the final authority on definite card rulings; the comprehensive rules are. Think of Gatherer rulings the same way you think of reminder text; helpful, but not a substitute for rules knowledge.
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
I've been thinking of finding a way of doing this to permanently exile opposing creatures, but it's too mana intensive.
The topic of the Rulings forum is asking and answering rules questions. Posts that contain nothing but strategy advice are considered spam. -Carsten
If you read the Angel, it says you "May" exile those cards, so when the ability resolves you can just choose not to exile the cards at all.
You'd have chosen your targets and the ability would already be on the stack before the Cyclonic Rift was even played. So it locks you in on your decision and no takesies backsies.
Hang on checking the card.I'll stick with that thought, I look at the may as a choice on whether or not you want that ability to go on the stack rather than having it as a final decision to push through.
This is not right. Targeting happens when something goes onto the stack because it is listed among the things you do when casting a spell, activating an ability or stacking a triggered ability. The same is not true for the choice of whether to make use of a "may" effect. That choice is made on resolution.
Also, it doesn't matter how you look at it, it matters what the Comprehensive Rules say.
It says you may exile the targets, not you may choose targets then must exile them. for that to be, it would be worded something like "When X enters the battlefield, you may choose three other target creatures from the battlefield and/or creature cards from graveyards and exile them."
The "May" is linked to the exile, not the target choosing.
See Restoration Angel + Phantasmal Image, whereby if your only non-Angel creature is a Phantasmal Image when you cast the Angel, you must target the Image and its ability will trigger, regardless of whether you want to actually use the ability when it resolves.
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Modern:
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Legacy:
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Let's establish that I did say you have to choose targets on it going on the stack.
I appreciate the correction, I do not appreciate the snarky attitude. Last time I checked I was entitled to an opinion and am allowed to be incorrect from time to time.
@Nukeman
Thanks for giving an example of how it would be worded for the effect, that helped clarify.
We all make mistakes. I have made it a habit to thank people who correct me in these rules threads, so if you want to, you could check out my bad answers by seeing what posts I have given thanks for.
I didn't mean to bash you. I wanted to point out that Magic game rules are not subject to interpretation (since you said "I look at the may as a choice on...", which implies personal interpretation), since there is only one correct way to interpret the Comprehensive Rules. Sorry about that.
sorry I'm still confused
so with my previous example in mind what your saying is when the cyclonic rift targets my angel, when it resolves I can choose not to exile my 3 targeted creatures?
Yes, that is right. The choice of whether you want to exile them is made when the triggered ability resolves, as with all activated and triggered abilities that use the word "may".
It's alright, at least that's been clarified, better I've been corrected than my incorrect post misinforming other players.
Cheers.
Indeed, that would be the case. The final decision on that "may" is made on resolution as mentioned by the others.
I really wish this rule didn't exist and could be removed somehow
"When Angel of Serenity enters the battlefield, you may exile up to three other target creatures from the battlefield and/or creature cards from graveyards.
When Angel of Serenity leaves the battlefield, return the exiled cards to their owners' hands."
Cyclonic Rift
"Return target nonland permanent you don't control to its owner's hand."
Situation: You play Angel of Serenity, targeting up to 3 creatures from the battlefield or graveyards when her EtB ability triggers.
If your opponent plays Cyclonic Rift at this point to return your Angel of Serenity to your hand, her leaves the battlefield triggered ability resolves, returning no creatures to hands. Then her triggered ability to exile up to 3 creatures will continue to resolve, permanently exiling the creatures you targeted.
If your opponent plays Cyclonic Rift after her first ability resolves, then her leaves the battlefield trigger will resolve normally, returning your targets to your hand.
No, this is wrong.
Her ability is a "may" ability, so you don't have to exile anything unless you want to, and you don't choose until it resolves.
So unless you WANT your cards gone, you can just choose not to exile them
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