Daru Spiritualist

  • #1
    Okay, so Daru Spiritualist is commonly used in tandem with Shuko, Starlit Sanctum, Lightning Greaves, and Nomads en-Kor to gain infinite toughness and then infinite life. I can understand that much just fine. However, I've seen a few decks that then follow up by using a card like Twisted Image or About Face to then swap power and toughness to get a massive creature to swing with or Condemn for infinite life. I've seen various reputable people, such as Spooky from the Super Budget Series also on this site, imply that it would work, with the combo resolving after Daru gets 1/Infinite, then swapping to make it infinite/1 when swinging. However, I've also seen DCI judges around the site rule on Twisted rulings that the layers of effects would mean that after playing twisted, Daru would stay a 1/Infinite. Which would be correct?

    Nomad en-Kor and Daru Spiritualist declare attack, Daru has no blocker, Nomads en-Kor redirect infinite damage to Daru making it a 1/Infinite, then player casts Twisted Image on Daru to make it an Infinite/1 to hit opponent for game.

    or

    Nomads en-Kor and Daru Spiritualist declare attack, Daru has no blocker, Nomads en-Kor redirect infinite damage to Daru making it a 1/Infinite, then player casts Twisted Image on Daru, Daru stays a 1/Infinite due to how effect layers resolve and opponent takes 1 damage.

    What about About Face where the card actually says that changes transfer over? Oracle text has taken that second part away and now people say that its implied, or say that it occurs another way due to the layer. Can someone please clear this up for me?
  • #2
    About face and Twisted Image work the same (see their Oracle texts).

    Essentially when a creature's p/t is switched, any thing altering the power alters the toughness instead, and vice versa.

    A cleaner way to do this though is to look at the comprehensive rules and apply the layers. To determine the final P/T of a creature always apply the switching last. So if I switch a 1/4 it becomes a 4/1. But if I Blood Frenzy it, go back from the start and apply +4/+0 to the 1/4 --> it becomes a 5/4, then apply the switch --> 4/5.

    From the comprehensive rules:

    613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each
    sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the
    order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)
    613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness
    are applied. See rule 604.3.
    613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
    613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness
    to a specific number or value) are applied.
    613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121,
    “Counters.”
    613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take
    the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and
    apply it to the creature’s power.
    Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the
    creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives
    the creature +5/+0. Its “unswitched” power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual
    power and toughness is 4/6.
    Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the
    creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. If the +0/+1 effect
    ends before the switch effect ends, the creature becomes 3/1.
    CUBES: [450 Unpowered] [300 Modern Pauper] [360 Mirran] [Reject Rare]
  • #3
    Okay cool, so going off the examples at the bottom, then Daru Spiritualist will get the kill, right? It got its stat boosted, THEN switched, so it should carry over as seen in the bolded part example:

    Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives the creature +5/+0. Its “unswitched” power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual
    power and toughness is 4/6
    .

    I appreciate you giving me a ruling very much, but for this question now, yes or no please. Will the unblocked Daru have the Infinite/1 after Twisted Image resolves? (Going off the scenario I gave earlier)

    If I'm understanding right, the layers resolve as thus:

    Daru's 1/1 gets +0/+Infinite making it a 1/Infinite. Then Twisted switches Daru's power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is Infinite/1.

    Going off the second part of the example, I couldn't then pump it to Infinite/Infinite, right? Since the boosts after Twisted will boost its power as worded in the italic text of the example.
  • #4
    Quote from RevWood
    Okay cool, so going off the examples at the bottom, then Daru Spiritualist will get the kill, right? It got its stat boosted, THEN switched, so it should carry over as seen in the bolded part example:

    Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives the creature +5/+0. Its “unswitched” power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual
    power and toughness is 4/6
    .

    I appreciate you giving me a ruling very much, but for this question now, yes or no please. Will the unblocked Daru have the Infinite/1 after Twisted Image resolves? (Going off the scenario I gave earlier)

    If I'm understanding right, the layers resolve as thus:

    Daru's 1/1 gets +0/+Infinite making it a 1/Infinite. Then Twisted switches Daru's power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is Infinite/1.

    Going off the second part of the example, I couldn't then pump it to Infinite/Infinite, right? Since the boosts after Twisted will boost its power as worded in the italic text of the example.


    This is all correct, especially the last sentence. It's also why it doesn't matter the order in which you do it. It will always only boost one stat.
    Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
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