At a recent FNM, I was playing an opponent in the semifinals. I told my opponent, who was playing Delver with white-backed sleeves, that I could tell the difference between his regular cards and his DFC (ie Delver) based upon the yellowish white mana circle peering through. He denied that I could. this is a good player, not a newb. So, when game 3 came around, I pile-shuffled his deck so that the Delvers were on the bottom. I wanted to point out to him, when he pondered and went to shuffle, that the Delvers were indeed on the bottom because he was using sleeves that allowed for differentiation as opposed to using checklist cards. However, he never shuffled that game before I won. the question is, was I wrong to do what I did? I am seeking answers both morally and game-wise legally.
Yes. Because you could distinguish the cards, you are performing insufficient shuffling, so it is wrong. However, your opponent is also partially in the wrong by playing with sleeves that make the cards distinguishable. Hopefully now that this player knows the cards are easily distinguishable he will change the sleeves. If not then I encourage you to let the judge at your FNM know, as that would mean he is purposely using the sleeves for the advantage, which is cheating, and is a very serious offense, even at FNM.
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If he has the privilege of seeing what cards are delvers you can too. He was most likely denying it, even after you proved you could see the cards so he could use it to his advantage in later games.
I think your opponent is a moron, even if he's a good player. You gave him a heads up that you could tell which cards were dual faced, and he said you couldn't. I would have called for a judge but if your store doesn't have a judge (mine doesn't) there is sometimes no other recourse. Gameplay wise illegal, morally grey, as you could have just shuffled normally and not looked too hard to see if he had any Delvers.
I was trying to demonstrate a point to my opponent. I expected him to shuffle, and thus make it a little more legitimate, but he pondered 3 times in that game and kept the library straight. My opportunity never came up.
I guess the question comes in, at a Regular REL (I know, a competitive REL SHOULD never come to this point), is it alright for an opponent to recognize an irregulairty in an opponent's deck, notify him of it, and, when rebuked, take advantage of it anyway? I don't feel I cheated, but I felt like I was dishonest, despite being honest the whole time (and also, left this out of the OP, I told him that I expect all his Delvers to be on the bottom of his deck)
At a recent FNM, I was playing an opponent in the semifinals. I told my opponent, who was playing Delver with white-backed sleeves, that I could tell the difference between his regular cards and his DFC (ie Delver) based upon the yellowish white mana circle peering through. He denied that I could. this is a good player, not a newb. So, when game 3 came around, I pile-shuffled his deck so that the Delvers were on the bottom. I wanted to point out to him, when he pondered and went to shuffle, that the Delvers were indeed on the bottom because he was using sleeves that allowed for differentiation as opposed to using checklist cards. However, he never shuffled that game before I won. the question is, was I wrong to do what I did? I am seeking answers both morally and game-wise legally.
Well, the obvious answer as to what you should have done is that you should have called the judge. In the absence of a "regular" judge, the TO or shop owner or whoever is running the FNM is automatically the head judge. In the future, the best thing to do is call a judge and explain the situation. The judge will then take any corrective action he considers necessary.
That said, about your situation... What you did was at least very, very dark gray. Philosophically, noticing your opponent doing something wrong (such as having marked cards like he did) and, instead of telling anybody, abusing that for your own benefit is cheating and punishable by disqualification. Now, normally "telling somebody" should mean "telling a judge". However, I realize that you did point out the problem to your opponent, so I'd probably consider you out of disqualification territory at the FNM, but I'd still be very unhappy with you, if I was the judge and later learned of this. You would certainly get a serious talk about what I said about abusing mistakes and calling a judge. And at more serious events, like a PTQ, I would still disqualify you.
However, I'd also want to have a very good talk with your opponent. Because if he realizes that he can recognize through the back of the sleeve if a given card is a Delver or not, and doesn't take any steps to correct this, that is also cheating, and punishable by disqualification.
Now, I wasn't there, to talk to either of you or to look at the sleeves. It is certainly possible that your opponent never noticed before, depending on how strongly the cards show through the sleeves and how good his eyesight is, and how much attention he pays to the backs of his sleeves, and it is possible that he seriously thought you were just trying to be annoying without giving it further thought. It is also possible that he was well aware of the situation and tried to simply ward off your complaints to keep abusing this. Or it's possible that he was aware of the situation but had no intentions of abusing it and didn't think it would be a problem if he didn't actively take advantage of it.
Well, the obvious answer as to what you should have done is that you should have called the judge. In the absence of a "regular" judge, the TO or shop owner or whoever is running the FNM is automatically the head judge. In the future, the best thing to do is call a judge and explain the situation. The judge will then take any corrective action he considers necessary.
That said, about your situation... What you did was at least very, very dark gray. Philosophically, noticing your opponent doing something wrong (such as having marked cards like he did) and, instead of telling anybody, abusing that for your own benefit is cheating and punishable by disqualification. Now, normally "telling somebody" should mean "telling a judge". However, I realize that you did point out the problem to your opponent, so I'd probably consider you out of disqualification territory at the FNM, but I'd still be very unhappy with you, if I was the judge and later learned of this. You would certainly get a serious talk about what I said about abusing mistakes and calling a judge. And at more serious events, like a PTQ, I would still disqualify you.
However, I'd also want to have a very good talk with your opponent. Because if he realizes that he can recognize through the back of the sleeve if a given card is a Delver or not, and doesn't take any steps to correct this, that is also cheating, and punishable by disqualification.
Now, I wasn't there, to talk to either of you or to look at the sleeves. It is certainly possible that your opponent never noticed before, depending on how strongly the cards show through the sleeves and how good his eyesight is, and how much attention he pays to the backs of his sleeves, and it is possible that he seriously thought you were just trying to be annoying without giving it further thought. It is also possible that he was well aware of the situation and tried to simply ward off your complaints to keep abusing this. Or it's possible that he was aware of the situation but had no intentions of abusing it and didn't think it would be a problem if he didn't actively take advantage of it.
I truly appreciate your input. I feel that this is a learning experience for me. I just recently took and passed my Rules Advisor test in an attempt to re-certify myself as a Lvl 1 judge, a position I held during the Tempest/Urza's era. At my local gameshop, I am the one that they come to for gamerule-based question; my admitted weakness is with the floor policy procedures. My normal gameshop for FNM does not have a true Judge, and citing myself would seem awkward, much less giving myself a citation. The Store owner has access to the normal CPU based reporting system, but instead uses a dice-based paper format for determining matchups. My goal is to achieve certification so that I may give legitimacy to my local game store.
However, I do feel that I may have played inappropriately. My initial instinct, as with many, was to win; however, I decided that I would try and show my opponent (despite actually showing him two cards side-by-side), that his deck was marked and he should use checklists (which i also told him). It was a 10-man FNM, getting late, and nobody wanted to deal with unnecessary baggage. Our Store owner only wants to know the W/L tags; he caught kids stealing from Wal-Mart and opening packs in his store with no warning; he found a player adding cards to his M13 pre-release deckpool and only talked with him after the tourney was over; I just feel as though, while I was trying to teach a lesson, I won an Avacyn's Pilgrim that may not have been mine.
What you should do is call a judge (or the store owner/TO in the absence of a judge). Based on your description your store owner may not be the most reliable person for fair rulings, and that's unfortunate, but as long as he's the judge for the tournament whatever he rules is what goes. Even if it's wrong. That said, if you're having problems and talking to the store owner doesn't help, finding a new store to play at is probably a good idea.
What you did is, in my eyes, cheating. Your opponent had marked cards, which he shouldn't have had, and you manipulated them in such a way as to gain an advantage. I applaud you for pointing it out first, but that doesn't change the actions you took afterwards.
Had I been the judge at the event and you called me over, I would have asked your opponent to either find checklist cards or resleave and given extra time for him to do so. I'm going on the assumption that this player wasn't trying to cheat (it sounds like that to me), which for a first offence at an FNM means we just fix the problem, educate the players and move on.
However, what you did would get you a DQ. You tried to explain it to your opponent, and your opponent refused to acknowledge the problem, but that doesn't allow you to stack his deck. Stacking someones deck is cheating, and grounds for a DQ without prize.
At a recent FNM, I was playing an opponent in the semifinals. I told my opponent, who was playing Delver with white-backed sleeves, that I could tell the difference between his regular cards and his DFC (ie Delver) based upon the yellowish white mana circle peering through. He denied that I could. this is a good player, not a newb. So, when game 3 came around, I pile-shuffled his deck so that the Delvers were on the bottom. I wanted to point out to him, when he pondered and went to shuffle, that the Delvers were indeed on the bottom because he was using sleeves that allowed for differentiation as opposed to using checklist cards. However, he never shuffled that game before I won. the question is, was I wrong to do what I did? I am seeking answers both morally and game-wise legally.
I think When Taking the Rules Advisor test I came across a question with a similar situation(except in this case the opponent's deck actually wasn't sufficiently randomized, and the guy essentially pile shuffled all the lands to the bottom.
What ended up being the correct answer was that the guy who pile shuffled all the lands away would be disqualified for cheating.
Now, you were in an FNM, so it's probably not a very big deal in this case, but in a more competitive environment, the appropriate action would probably be to call a judge.
I think When Taking the Rules Advisor test I came across a question with a similar situation(except in this case the opponent's deck actually wasn't sufficiently randomized, and the guy essentially pile shuffled all the lands to the bottom.
What ended up being the correct answer was that the guy who pile shuffled all the lands away would be disqualified for cheating.
Now, you were in an FNM, so it's probably not a very big deal in this case, but in a more competitive environment, the appropriate action would probably be to call a judge.
It's still cheating at an FNM and a big deal. We don't deal in punitive punishments as judges. You either fix it completely (in this case having the person use checklists or change his sleeves), or you give him a talking->game loss->etc. if he refuses to do so. (you can give game losses at FNM's for someone failing to follow the HJ's instructions)
That said, the fact you came here to see what you should have done shows maturity, and that is good. All judges have made a bad call at some point, and it's part of the learning process.
I realize your store owner hasn't placed you (or anyone) as the actual head judge, so perhaps the first step is talking with him to see about appointing you as such. You don't need to be a certified L1 to HJ an FNM. Having a HJ (even if they are not L1) can really help so that everyone has a person they can rely on for rules and disputes.
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Level 1 JudgeModern:
WUR Eat a good breakfast, have some Cheeri0s!
C I've got an Affinity for running you over with artifacts
EDH:
G Ezuri
W Kemba
WUBRG Scion-spiracy (in progress)
I guess the question comes in, at a Regular REL (I know, a competitive REL SHOULD never come to this point), is it alright for an opponent to recognize an irregulairty in an opponent's deck, notify him of it, and, when rebuked, take advantage of it anyway? I don't feel I cheated, but I felt like I was dishonest, despite being honest the whole time (and also, left this out of the OP, I told him that I expect all his Delvers to be on the bottom of his deck)
Well, the obvious answer as to what you should have done is that you should have called the judge. In the absence of a "regular" judge, the TO or shop owner or whoever is running the FNM is automatically the head judge. In the future, the best thing to do is call a judge and explain the situation. The judge will then take any corrective action he considers necessary.
That said, about your situation... What you did was at least very, very dark gray. Philosophically, noticing your opponent doing something wrong (such as having marked cards like he did) and, instead of telling anybody, abusing that for your own benefit is cheating and punishable by disqualification. Now, normally "telling somebody" should mean "telling a judge". However, I realize that you did point out the problem to your opponent, so I'd probably consider you out of disqualification territory at the FNM, but I'd still be very unhappy with you, if I was the judge and later learned of this. You would certainly get a serious talk about what I said about abusing mistakes and calling a judge. And at more serious events, like a PTQ, I would still disqualify you.
However, I'd also want to have a very good talk with your opponent. Because if he realizes that he can recognize through the back of the sleeve if a given card is a Delver or not, and doesn't take any steps to correct this, that is also cheating, and punishable by disqualification.
Now, I wasn't there, to talk to either of you or to look at the sleeves. It is certainly possible that your opponent never noticed before, depending on how strongly the cards show through the sleeves and how good his eyesight is, and how much attention he pays to the backs of his sleeves, and it is possible that he seriously thought you were just trying to be annoying without giving it further thought. It is also possible that he was well aware of the situation and tried to simply ward off your complaints to keep abusing this. Or it's possible that he was aware of the situation but had no intentions of abusing it and didn't think it would be a problem if he didn't actively take advantage of it.
I truly appreciate your input. I feel that this is a learning experience for me. I just recently took and passed my Rules Advisor test in an attempt to re-certify myself as a Lvl 1 judge, a position I held during the Tempest/Urza's era. At my local gameshop, I am the one that they come to for gamerule-based question; my admitted weakness is with the floor policy procedures. My normal gameshop for FNM does not have a true Judge, and citing myself would seem awkward, much less giving myself a citation. The Store owner has access to the normal CPU based reporting system, but instead uses a dice-based paper format for determining matchups. My goal is to achieve certification so that I may give legitimacy to my local game store.
However, I do feel that I may have played inappropriately. My initial instinct, as with many, was to win; however, I decided that I would try and show my opponent (despite actually showing him two cards side-by-side), that his deck was marked and he should use checklists (which i also told him). It was a 10-man FNM, getting late, and nobody wanted to deal with unnecessary baggage. Our Store owner only wants to know the W/L tags; he caught kids stealing from Wal-Mart and opening packs in his store with no warning; he found a player adding cards to his M13 pre-release deckpool and only talked with him after the tourney was over; I just feel as though, while I was trying to teach a lesson, I won an Avacyn's Pilgrim that may not have been mine.
What you should do is call a judge (or the store owner/TO in the absence of a judge). Based on your description your store owner may not be the most reliable person for fair rulings, and that's unfortunate, but as long as he's the judge for the tournament whatever he rules is what goes. Even if it's wrong. That said, if you're having problems and talking to the store owner doesn't help, finding a new store to play at is probably a good idea.
What you did is, in my eyes, cheating. Your opponent had marked cards, which he shouldn't have had, and you manipulated them in such a way as to gain an advantage. I applaud you for pointing it out first, but that doesn't change the actions you took afterwards.
Had I been the judge at the event and you called me over, I would have asked your opponent to either find checklist cards or resleave and given extra time for him to do so. I'm going on the assumption that this player wasn't trying to cheat (it sounds like that to me), which for a first offence at an FNM means we just fix the problem, educate the players and move on.
However, what you did would get you a DQ. You tried to explain it to your opponent, and your opponent refused to acknowledge the problem, but that doesn't allow you to stack his deck. Stacking someones deck is cheating, and grounds for a DQ without prize.
[[b]B]DCI Level 2 Judge[/B][/b]I think When Taking the Rules Advisor test I came across a question with a similar situation(except in this case the opponent's deck actually wasn't sufficiently randomized, and the guy essentially pile shuffled all the lands to the bottom.
What ended up being the correct answer was that the guy who pile shuffled all the lands away would be disqualified for cheating.
Now, you were in an FNM, so it's probably not a very big deal in this case, but in a more competitive environment, the appropriate action would probably be to call a judge.
It's still cheating at an FNM and a big deal. We don't deal in punitive punishments as judges. You either fix it completely (in this case having the person use checklists or change his sleeves), or you give him a talking->game loss->etc. if he refuses to do so. (you can give game losses at FNM's for someone failing to follow the HJ's instructions)
That said, the fact you came here to see what you should have done shows maturity, and that is good. All judges have made a bad call at some point, and it's part of the learning process.
I realize your store owner hasn't placed you (or anyone) as the actual head judge, so perhaps the first step is talking with him to see about appointing you as such. You don't need to be a certified L1 to HJ an FNM. Having a HJ (even if they are not L1) can really help so that everyone has a person they can rely on for rules and disputes.