***EDIT: Comprehensive summaries of the questions answered in this thread can be found in posts #9 and #17.***
In a game of Commander, one of my opponents cast a late-game Open the Vaults. When all artifacts and enchantments are placed onto the battlfield, do they "see" each other? In other words, if I have an Oblivion Ring in my graveyard, and my opponent has a Wurmcoil Engine in his graveyard, does my O-Ring "see" his Wurmcoil in time to exile it, or can my O-Ring only target permanents that are already in play?
This same opponent plays a Eureka deck, so the same confusion arises when it resolves. Popular vote/in-house decisions normally end the debate on these issues, but I am a big supporter of following the rules to a tee.
Well I'm not sure on the general question you are asking, but in your example, Oblivion Ring has a triggered ability that goes on the stack after it enters the battlefield. This ability can target any of the other permanents put into play at the same time regardless of whether it "sees them when it comes into play".
Just ask yourself this question: When Oblivion Ring's first triggered ability goes onto the stack, is Wurmcoil Engine on the battlefield? The answer is yes, so Wurmcoil Engine is a legal target for the triggered ability. Note that [c}Oblivion Ring[/c] does not target anything, it is the first triggered ability that targets.
Open the Vaults puts many cards onto the battlefield at the same time. Abilities that trigger during Open the Vaults' resolution will have to wait until after it is done resolving to actually go onto the stack. You choose the target when the ability goes onto the stack, and at that time all the stuff Open the Vaults brought out is on the battlefield.
I'm afraid Ice Cage will not be able to be attached to Wurmcoil Engine. This is because these two permanents are put onto the battlefield at the same time, and you have to decide what permanent Ice Cage will become attached to the moment before it entered the battlefield. At that moment, Wurmcoil Engine has not yet entered the battlefield, so you can't select it.
Thanks for your explanation. Regarding Eureka, how does that work when Gatherer says,
"Anything that triggers during the resolution of this will wait to be put on the stack until everything is put onto the battlefield and resolution is complete. The player whose turn it is will put all of his or her triggered abilities on the stack in any order, then each other player in turn order will do the same. (The last ability put on the stack will be the first one that resolves.)"
This makes it sound like all permanents will ETB at the same time, then in player order, all triggers will be placed on the stack and resolved "last in, first out." Does this mean that everyone in an 8-player game has to keep up with the order in which every permanent is put into play to determine which permanents can legally target one another when everything finally resolves?
Thanks for your explanation. Regarding Eureka, how does that work when Gatherer says,
"Anything that triggers during the resolution of this will wait to be put on the stack until everything is put onto the battlefield and resolution is complete. The player whose turn it is will put all of his or her triggered abilities on the stack in any order, then each other player in turn order will do the same. (The last ability put on the stack will be the first one that resolves.)"
This makes it sound like all permanents will ETB at the same time, then in player order, all triggers will be placed on the stack and resolved "last in, first out." Does this mean that everyone in an 8-player game has to keep up with the order in which every permanent is put into play to determine which permanents can legally target one another when everything finally resolves?
My head hurts.
It doesn't say that. It just explains how you are to treat anything the does trigger during the resolution of Eureka.
Okay, let me digest this a piece at a time.... Let's start with Open the Vaults. Do I have this correct thus far?
1.) Open the Vaults puts all the new permanents onto the battlefield in one action.
2.) If a permanent (Oblivion Ring, Spine of Ish Sah, etc.) comes into play via Open the Vaults, its "enters the battlefield" triggers CAN target other permanents that are also being put into play via Open the Vaults. This is because the ETB trigger fires AFTER the permanent is put into play. By the time it's trigger fires, all other permanents have already been put into play. Therefore, they become legal targets for the trigger.
3.) If an ENCHANTMENT that ENCHANTS a permanent (Ice Cage, Angelic Destiny, etc.) enters the battlfield via Open the Vaults, it CANNOT target other permanents that entered the battlefield via Open the Vaults.
4.) After Open the Vaults resolves, then all triggers resolve. They are placed on the stack beginning with the active player (the player whose turn it is) and followed by each other player in turn order. All triggers will then resolve "last in, first out" beginning with the last player's triggers.
Permanents put into play by Eureka enter the battlefield one at a time. Does this mean that all players at the table have to keep up with the order in which permanents are placed onto the battlefield in order to properly determine which ETB triggers can target which permanents?
Permanents put into play by Eureka enter the battlefield one at a time. Does this mean that all players at the table have to keep up with the order in which permanents are placed onto the battlefield in order to properly determine which ETB triggers can target which permanents?
No, this will not affect targeting. Everything that triggers during Eureka's resolution will wait until after resolution is finished before going onto the stack, which is when you announce targets.
What you will have to keep track of is what actually triggers. If a creature enters the battlefield, and after that a permanent with an ability that triggers on a creature entering the battlefield comes in, it wasn't there at the time the trigger event occurred. This means that it won't trigger. The example Merestil Haye gave a few posts back with Pandemonium was appropriate.
Assuming no other artifacts are in play, Player 3's Manic Vandal can ONLY target Player 2's Batterskull, because Sphere of the Suns came into play after the Vandal?
Is that correct?
BTW, thank you for providing me with a remedial course on resolutions. I greatly appreciate it.
Assuming no other artifacts are in play, Player 3's Manic Vandal can ONLY target Player 2's Batterskull, because Sphere of the Suns came into play after the Vandal?
Is that correct?
BTW, thank you for providing me with a remedial course on resolutions. I greatly appreciate it.
Manic Vandal's triggered ability can target either Batterskull or Sphere of the Suns. Triggered abilities, like the one Manic Vandal has, goes onto the stack just before players get priority. You choose targets at that time, and both artifacts are on the battlefield at that moment.
You know that an ability is triggered if it uses the word "when", "whenever" or "at" in its text. Look at Manic Vandal for an example. I like to think that there are three important moments in the life of a triggered ability.
When it triggers. This is when the trigger condition is actually met.
When it goes onto the stack. This happens after it has triggered, just before any player gets priority. This is the time at which you announce targets.
When it resolves.
Manic Vandal's ability will trigger when it is put onto the battlefield, and at that time only Batterskull is out. You don't select your target at this time though. Sphere of the Suns gets put onto the battlefield, and then Eureka goes to the graveyard and finishes resolving. Now, as players are about to get priority, is when you put the trigger onto the stack and announce its target. As you can see, both artifacts are out now, and can be chosen.
Yes, that is correct. What is important here is when stuff triggers, while in your situation with Manic Vandal we didn't really care when it triggered, but we did care about when it was put onto the stack and targets announced.
Ok, so based on everything you guys have said, here's my comprehensive understanding of how Eureka should work...
1.) Permanents put into play by Eureka enter the battlefield one at a time.
2.) Everything that triggers during Eureka's resolution will wait until after Eureka's resolution is finished before going onto the stack, which is when you announce targets.
3.) If a creature enters the battlefield, and after that a permanent with an ability that triggers on a creature entering the battlefield comes in, it wasn't there at the time the trigger event occurred. This means that it won't trigger. For example, if the Eureka caster puts a creature down, and his opponent puts Pandemonium down, the Pandemonium will not fire for the first creature, because at the time the event occurred Pandemonium was not on the battlefield. It will fire for any subsequent creatures that are placed onto the battlefield. The same is true for cards like Dire Undercurrents.
4.) Triggered abilities - for instance, like the one Manic Vandal has - go onto the stack just before players get priority. You choose targets at that time, and all artifacts put into play by Eureka are on the battlefield at that moment. Therefore, regardless of the order in which Manic Vandal or any artifacts come into play, Manic Vandal's triggered ability can target any of them after Eureka resolves.
5.) The bottom line? When permanents that have ETB triggers are put into play via Eureka, all permanents put into play via Eureka WILL see each other and can target one another when Eureka resolves. If "Permanent X" (Pandemonium, Dire Undercurrents, etc.) is put into play and has a trigger that fires when OTHER permanents are put into play, those triggers will only fire for permanents that are put into play AFTER "Permanent X" is placed on the battlefield.
WHEW! Thank you all for your help. I *GREATLY* appreciate it. If any of those points are incorrect, please let me know.
Ok, so based on everything you guys have said, here's my comprehensive understanding of how Eureka should work...
1.) Permanents put into play by Eureka enter the battlefield one at a time.
2.) Everything that triggers during Eureka's resolution will wait until after Eureka's resolution is finished before going onto the stack, which is when you announce targets.
3.) If a creature enters the battlefield, and after that a permanent with an ability that triggers on a creature entering the battlefield comes in, it wasn't there at the time the trigger event occurred. This means that it won't trigger. For example, if the Eureka caster puts a creature down, and his opponent puts Pandemonium down, the Pandemonium will not fire for the first creature, because at the time the event occurred Pandemonium was not on the battlefield. It will fire for any subsequent creatures that are placed onto the battlefield. The same is true for cards like Dire Undercurrents.
4.) Triggered abilities - for instance, like the one Manic Vandal has - go onto the stack just before players get priority. You choose targets at that time, and all artifacts put into play by Eureka are on the battlefield at that moment. Therefore, regardless of the order in which Manic Vandal or any artifacts come into play, Manic Vandal's triggered ability can target any of them after Eureka resolves.
5.) The bottom line? When permanents that have ETB triggers are put into play via Eureka, all permanents put into play via Eureka WILL see each other and can target one another when Eureka resolves. If "Permanent X" (Pandemonium, Dire Undercurrents, etc.) is put into play and has a trigger that fires when OTHER permanents are put into play, those triggers will only fire for permanents that are put into play AFTER "Permanent X" is placed on the battlefield.
WHEW! Thank you all for your help. I *GREATLY* appreciate it. If any of those points are incorrect, please let me know.
- Adam
Yeah man! Seems like you got it down. Hopefully this will contribute to your overal understanding of triggered abilities as well.
When the Primeval Titan enters the battlefield its ability will trigger. However, that trigger must wait until Eureka finishes resolving before it is placed on the stack.
Once Humility is on the battlefield all creatures lose all abilities so the Primeval Titan no longer has ability. It's triggered ability, though, is still waiting around and will continue to do so. When Grave Titan enters the battlefield it won't have an ability so nothing will trigger.
End result after Eureka resolves: both Titans are 1/1 creatures with no abilities and there is a Primeval Titan trigger on the stack.
Humility is a static effect, and doesn't need to wait for anything regarding the stack to go into effect. Once it's on the board, it's active--even if it was put on the board during another spell's resolution.
So Grave Titan won't trigger, but Primeval Titan had already triggered before Humility was out. The Primetime trigger will be placed onto the stack as soon as Eureka finishes resolving.
It's the same logic used for Pandemonium and Dire Undercurrents. Those are going to trigger from ETBs of all creatures put down after them, because they are already active just by being on the board.
The reason Manic Vandal can hit artifacts played after him with Eureka is because, even though he triggers, you don't have to declare targets until the ability is actually being placed onto the stack.
Player Two can still kill P1's Craw Wurm with his two Pandemonium triggers, even though the Hill Giant ETB'd before Craw Wurm, because you don't have to declare targets until the triggers are being put onto the stack.
Fundamentally. Paragraph 3 contains an error though. You're correct in your conclusions about how the process of putting Auras on the battlefield, but you may have missed some legal choices.
The only objects that can target are spells, activated or triggered abilities on the stack. An Aura (such as Ice Cage) entering the battlefield from any other zone does not and can not target anything. This means that it can enchant a creature with Hexproof or Shroud.
The object the Aura can be attached to still has to be one the Aura can legally enchant, so you can't attach a black Aura to something with Protection from Black (for example).
The part about attaching Auras to creatures with Hexproof or Shroud confuses me, How/why does this work?
The part about attaching Auras to creatures with Hexproof or Shroud confuses me, How/why does this work?
This is because Aura spells target only when they are on the stack. If they are put onto the battlefield via a spell or ability then they do not target.
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The part about attaching Auras to creatures with Hexproof or Shroud confuses me, How/why does this work?
Auras target only when the aura spell is on the stack. You can't cast Holy Strength on a creature with shroud or hexproof.
An aura that enters the battlefield via some method other than resolving as a spell can be attached to a creature with shroud or hexproof:
303.4f. If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player's control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn't specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura's enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
Auras target only when the aura spell is on the stack. You can't cast Holy Strength on a creature with shroud or hexproof.
An aura that enters the battlefield via some method other than resolving as a spell can be attached to a creature with shroud or hexproof:
303.4f. If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player's control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn't specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura's enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
So does this mean an aura card entering the battlefield by any activated or triggered ability, not actually cast can target a creature with shroud or hexproof? So I could Sun Titan an Ice Cage from my graveyard onto a creature with shroud/hexproof?
So does this mean an aura card entering the battlefield by any activated or triggered ability, not actually cast can target a creature with shroud or hexproof? So I could Sun Titan an Ice Cage from my graveyard onto a creature with shroud/hexproof?
It won't target the creature but you may choose a creature with shroud or hexproof and attach a Sun Titan'd Ice Cage to it as long as that creature fulfills the aura's enchant clause and doesn't have something preventing the creature from being enchanted.
In a game of Commander, one of my opponents cast a late-game Open the Vaults. When all artifacts and enchantments are placed onto the battlfield, do they "see" each other? In other words, if I have an Oblivion Ring in my graveyard, and my opponent has a Wurmcoil Engine in his graveyard, does my O-Ring "see" his Wurmcoil in time to exile it, or can my O-Ring only target permanents that are already in play?
This same opponent plays a Eureka deck, so the same confusion arises when it resolves. Popular vote/in-house decisions normally end the debate on these issues, but I am a big supporter of following the rules to a tee.
It's my understanding that all of the permanents entering the battlefield via Eureka "see" each other and can therefore target one another. I believe this because of the rulings found here: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159300
However, all of the permanents entering the battlefield via Open the Vaults do NOT "see" each other and can therefore not target one another: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193877
Am I reading these rulings correctly? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
- Adam
Could an Ice Cage enchant a Wurmcoil Engine if both came into play from an Open the Vaults?
- Adam
Open the Vaults puts many cards onto the battlefield at the same time. Abilities that trigger during Open the Vaults' resolution will have to wait until after it is done resolving to actually go onto the stack. You choose the target when the ability goes onto the stack, and at that time all the stuff Open the Vaults brought out is on the battlefield.
I'm afraid Ice Cage will not be able to be attached to Wurmcoil Engine. This is because these two permanents are put onto the battlefield at the same time, and you have to decide what permanent Ice Cage will become attached to the moment before it entered the battlefield. At that moment, Wurmcoil Engine has not yet entered the battlefield, so you can't select it.
Thanks for your explanation. Regarding Eureka, how does that work when Gatherer says,
"Anything that triggers during the resolution of this will wait to be put on the stack until everything is put onto the battlefield and resolution is complete. The player whose turn it is will put all of his or her triggered abilities on the stack in any order, then each other player in turn order will do the same. (The last ability put on the stack will be the first one that resolves.)"
This makes it sound like all permanents will ETB at the same time, then in player order, all triggers will be placed on the stack and resolved "last in, first out." Does this mean that everyone in an 8-player game has to keep up with the order in which every permanent is put into play to determine which permanents can legally target one another when everything finally resolves?
My head hurts.
It doesn't say that. It just explains how you are to treat anything the does trigger during the resolution of Eureka.
Is my understanding correct so far?
- Adam
Now, on to Eureka. Let me check my understanding.
Permanents put into play by Eureka enter the battlefield one at a time. Does this mean that all players at the table have to keep up with the order in which permanents are placed onto the battlefield in order to properly determine which ETB triggers can target which permanents?
No, this will not affect targeting. Everything that triggers during Eureka's resolution will wait until after resolution is finished before going onto the stack, which is when you announce targets.
What you will have to keep track of is what actually triggers. If a creature enters the battlefield, and after that a permanent with an ability that triggers on a creature entering the battlefield comes in, it wasn't there at the time the trigger event occurred. This means that it won't trigger. The example Merestil Haye gave a few posts back with Pandemonium was appropriate.
Player 1 - Grizzly Bears
Player 2 - Batterskull
Player 3 - Manic Vandal
Player 4 - Sphere of the Suns
Assuming no other artifacts are in play, Player 3's Manic Vandal can ONLY target Player 2's Batterskull, because Sphere of the Suns came into play after the Vandal?
Is that correct?
BTW, thank you for providing me with a remedial course on resolutions. I greatly appreciate it.
Manic Vandal's triggered ability can target either Batterskull or Sphere of the Suns. Triggered abilities, like the one Manic Vandal has, goes onto the stack just before players get priority. You choose targets at that time, and both artifacts are on the battlefield at that moment.
You know that an ability is triggered if it uses the word "when", "whenever" or "at" in its text. Look at Manic Vandal for an example. I like to think that there are three important moments in the life of a triggered ability.
Manic Vandal's ability will trigger when it is put onto the battlefield, and at that time only Batterskull is out. You don't select your target at this time though. Sphere of the Suns gets put onto the battlefield, and then Eureka goes to the graveyard and finishes resolving. Now, as players are about to get priority, is when you put the trigger onto the stack and announce its target. As you can see, both artifacts are out now, and can be chosen.
So, similar to the Pandemonium example, is my understanding correct here in a two-player game:
Player 1 casts Eureka
Player 1 - Flying Men
Player 2 - Grizzly Bears
Player 1 - Dire Undercurrents
Player 2 - Llanowar Elves
Player 1 - Thieving Magpie
Player 2 - Runeclaw Bears
**Eureka Resolves**
Player 1 may draw only one card for the Thieving Magpie because Dire Undercurrents was not in play when Flying Men was put into play.
Is that correct?
- Adam
Yes, that is correct. What is important here is when stuff triggers, while in your situation with Manic Vandal we didn't really care when it triggered, but we did care about when it was put onto the stack and targets announced.
WHEW! Thank you all for your help. I *GREATLY* appreciate it. If any of those points are incorrect, please let me know.
- Adam
Yeah man! Seems like you got it down. Hopefully this will contribute to your overal understanding of triggered abilities as well.
Eureka puts the following into play:
Player 1 - Primeval Titan
Player 2 - Humility
Player 3 - Grave Titan
What happens? Does Humility nerf both Titans' ETB triggers, does it nerf only the Grave Titan, or does it do neither?
Thanks for your help,
- Adam
Once Humility is on the battlefield all creatures lose all abilities so the Primeval Titan no longer has ability. It's triggered ability, though, is still waiting around and will continue to do so. When Grave Titan enters the battlefield it won't have an ability so nothing will trigger.
End result after Eureka resolves: both Titans are 1/1 creatures with no abilities and there is a Primeval Titan trigger on the stack.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
So Grave Titan won't trigger, but Primeval Titan had already triggered before Humility was out. The Primetime trigger will be placed onto the stack as soon as Eureka finishes resolving.
It's the same logic used for Pandemonium and Dire Undercurrents. Those are going to trigger from ETBs of all creatures put down after them, because they are already active just by being on the board.
The reason Manic Vandal can hit artifacts played after him with Eureka is because, even though he triggers, you don't have to declare targets until the ability is actually being placed onto the stack.
Say Eureka is cast and the cards played go as follows:
-P1 Pandemonium
-P2 Hill Giant
-P1 Craw Wurm
-P2 Grizzly Bears
Player Two can still kill P1's Craw Wurm with his two Pandemonium triggers, even though the Hill Giant ETB'd before Craw Wurm, because you don't have to declare targets until the triggers are being put onto the stack.
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Thanks all!
- Adam
The part about attaching Auras to creatures with Hexproof or Shroud confuses me, How/why does this work?
This is because Aura spells target only when they are on the stack. If they are put onto the battlefield via a spell or ability then they do not target.
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Auras target only when the aura spell is on the stack. You can't cast Holy Strength on a creature with shroud or hexproof.
An aura that enters the battlefield via some method other than resolving as a spell can be attached to a creature with shroud or hexproof:
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
So does this mean an aura card entering the battlefield by any activated or triggered ability, not actually cast can target a creature with shroud or hexproof? So I could Sun Titan an Ice Cage from my graveyard onto a creature with shroud/hexproof?
It won't target the creature but you may choose a creature with shroud or hexproof and attach a Sun Titan'd Ice Cage to it as long as that creature fulfills the aura's enchant clause and doesn't have something preventing the creature from being enchanted.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.