I was having a T2 FNM round against an opponent, and in game 1 we discovered that we were both playing Tempered Steel.
When starting game 3 after my victory, he instantly decides to mulligan and I think about it... eventually doing the same. He shuffles first and presents me his deck while I was shuffling mine, but I take a 5 seconds break to hold my deck in the left hand and take a random top half of his deck in order to divide it (NB: sorry I don't know if there's an English term for this ^^), and then I proceed to have a final shuffle and present my deck to him.
He draws 6 when I was just placing my deck on the table, and he was so happy for his hand that he played land and artifacts when I had just finished to view my 6-cards hand. I take some time to evaluate my hand, and I finally say something like "I keep my hand, but please note that you gave me free informations. Please wait for your opponent to say keep or mulligan before starting on the play."
Another guy (not involved in the FNM), who was watching us, scolded me saying "It was your duty to stop him at the first card he was playing, YOU would get a game loss for that. Not him."
At which point, I tell him to BEEP off and I sarcastly conceded on the spot "as if" he was the judge handing me a game loss. Then, I proceeded to tell the TO my result and the outcome of game 3: he duly noted the result and wisely didn't comment the story.
Now the questions is double:
A) was that guy right and it was my duty to stop my opponent? What sanction is handed to a player at a Tournament level?
B) I'm pretty sure that the guy had to be silent during the match, should he have reported that phrase to the judge instead? Since he was not part of the Sanctioned Event (and thus, not sanctionable with warning of sorts), what kind of actions could a judge do? Kick him off of the shop?
It's like if a Mr. John Doe comes to a PTQ of his choice and starts blabbering at matches. He may have a DCI number, but he's not playing so he doesn't care what players/judges can do to him (phisical attacks aside ^^).
It's a game play error if your opponent begins playing "early". Having a bystander point out that something is wrong is perfectly fine though, as long as he isn't just harassing you. He should have paused the game and grabbed the Judge.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
At competitive level all an observer can do is tell you guys to stop the game
and call for a judge... In this situation I wouldn't be penalising either palyer... No-one's really done anything wrong (the most it could be would be a GPE-Game Rule Violation, coz he played cards when he wasn't meant to)... This feels just like a miss-communication problem... When you've said "you've just given me extra information" that starts ringing warning bells though, I'd probably pull you aside and have a chat... If I were in your position I would try and catch my opponent as he played the first card...
The question is that the spectator is out of the tournament, so a Match Loss is irrelevant for him/her. He can possibly continue to talk ignoring the judges and the players. (That's not what happened to me, since the guy spoke only once and it interfered with the game; it's just an hypotethical behaviour).
As for the game state, I couldn't barely block him from casting one-two-three-four cards in a couple of seconds while I was evaluating my hand. Thus I took extra seconds to evaluate my hand AND my opponent's fast start since it was a free information to me. That's why (interference aside) I ask if the guy's opinion was legitimate or not: I didn't cheat, but I took what I was offered and I still believe I could have mulliganed again if I so ever wished.
The stern talk is reserved for the interfering busybody of a spectator, who committed the infraction of offering outside assistance. I would discuss why what he is alleged to have done constitutes outside assistance and why that infraction is so severely punished before instructing him that next time, he is to do no more than tell me what he saw, and inform the players that he is calling a judge.
The OP's scenario is not an example of outside assistance. There was no strategic information given, the spectator should be instructed that his actions were not appropriate for his role in the tournament. If the spectator continues to be disruptive then the TO can remove him from the venue.
If there is cheating involved - say the OP could have stopped the starting player from casting his first spell but did not in order to see what the spell was - then the player involved is disqualified. (That's not an accusation, it's a hypothetical for purposes of discussion.)
This is not an example of cheating. It is never a player's responsibility to prevent an opponent from breaking the rules. It is a player's responsibility to call a judge after the fact.
Additionally players are allowed to reveal hidden information that they have access to and opponents are allowed to take advantage of that revealed information.
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Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
What we do is enroll the spectator (and give them a dci number if they don't have one :P) and give him a match loss... from what you said you would not be getting DQ'd... And yes, you do still have the opportunity to mulligain...
@Merestill Haye:
At competitive REL, the spectator would have received a Match Loss if guilty of outside interference - likely far more than any GPE penalty.
From the original post:
"It was your duty to stop him at the first card he was playing, YOU would get a game loss for that. Not him."
This is nowhere near outside assistance... Just the spectator being a bit of a jerk and thinking he knows what he's saying (which he doesn't).
If there is cheating involved - say the OP could have stopped the starting player from casting his first spell but did not in order to see what the spell was - then the player involved is disqualified.
What you describe is Fraud and this is why I said
When you've said "you've just given me extra information" that starts ringing warning bells though, I'd probably pull you aside and have a chat...
What you describe is Fraud and this is why I said this is where I'd be doing my investigation...
So, you would investigate me for having watched my opponent play cards and reveal them to me. Did I understand correctly?
A few answers to your hypothetical questions:
Yes, I gained an advantage, knowing how my opponent would start.
Maybe, I could have stopped my opponent from starting early.
And finally no, I feel I haven't done anything wrong, and Exsam backs me out:
Additionally players are allowed to reveal hidden information that they have access to and opponents are allowed to take advantage of that revealed information.
What would you result from your investigation, then?
You are not cheating if your opponent gives you information unintentionally. You are cheating if you go through effort to gain that information, such as intentionally peeking while he is shuffling, turning the deck far enough to glimpse a card when you cut, and so on. You would not get a warning or a game loss in this situation.
The individual who thought he knew what he didn't know, on the other hand, was clearly doing something wrong. I do not know if it would result in someone being forced to enroll in the tournament, given a forced upon DCI number, and registered a game loss. I would certainly instruct him to keep his opinions to himself beyond suggesting that the players stop the game and call a judge. If he continues to act in his know-it-all manner, I would instruct him to leave the premesis.
I just don't see any way of forcing someone to obtain a DCI number. Even in that situation, you basically have handed him points for participating in an event that he did not participate in. Even with a loss and without a win, he would still get the basic points for entering and showing up. This is a terrible solution to a bad situation.
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Currently playing:
Standard: WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern: UR Twinning RU G Venus Fly Trap G U Artifacts Aggro U
Even in that situation, you basically have handed him points for participating in an event that he did not participate in. Even with a loss and without a win, he would still get the basic points for entering and showing up.
That's not true. In order to receive participation points, you have to play at least one round. This person didn't play any rounds.
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Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
That's not true. In order to receive participation points, you have to play at least one round. This person didn't play any rounds.
You still have not addressed the fact that there is nothing in the rules that can force someone to enter the event, force them to obtain a DCI number, and then give them the game loss.
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Currently playing:
Standard: WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern: UR Twinning RU G Venus Fly Trap G U Artifacts Aggro U
You still have not addressed the fact that there is nothing in the rules that can force someone to enter the event, force them to obtain a DCI number, and then give them the game loss.
I wasn't trying to address that. You're right, no such provision exists for giving a Game Loss. It does, however, exist for disqualifications. From the Infraction Procedure Guide:
The recipient of a Disqualification does not need to be a player in the tournament. He or she may be a spectator or
other bystander. If this happens, he or she must be entered into the tournament in DCI Reporter so that he or she
may be disqualified and reported to the DCI.
In the situation at hand, I would simply ask the spectator to leave the premises if he continues to be a nuisance, in according with the following sentence from the Infraction Procedure Guide's section on Outside Assistance:
Spectators who commit this infraction may be asked to leave the venue if they are not enrolled in the tournament.
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Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
It's pretty much situations like that I like to avoid, unless it's a casual game among friends I always ask my opponent if they're ready before I start my turn if I play first.
When people butt in to my games I react depending on how they interfered, if it's a simple comment like "Oh damn, look at that creature" or "Wow that's a cool combo" no biggie, he's just commenting on the game state, but if he starts being a rules lawyer when he didn't need to be or starts making comments like "I wouldn't do that, you should see what your opponents has in his hand" I tell them to bugger off.
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I haven't changed by signature since Mirrodin Besieged spoilers started!
When people butt in to my games I react depending on how they interfered, if it's a simple comment like "Oh damn, look at that creature" or "Wow that's a cool combo" no biggie, he's just commenting on the game state, but if he starts being a rules lawyer when he didn't need to be or starts making comments like "I wouldn't do that, you should see what your opponents has in his hand" I tell them to bugger off.
Agreed. Rulings should only be made when solicited. Otherwise, someone is just butting in.
(No, I am not referring to these threads, because obviously someone is soliciting a ruling by posting here.)
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Currently playing:
Standard: WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern: UR Twinning RU G Venus Fly Trap G U Artifacts Aggro U
When starting game 3 after my victory, he instantly decides to mulligan and I think about it... eventually doing the same. He shuffles first and presents me his deck while I was shuffling mine, but I take a 5 seconds break to hold my deck in the left hand and take a random top half of his deck in order to divide it (NB: sorry I don't know if there's an English term for this ^^), and then I proceed to have a final shuffle and present my deck to him.
He draws 6 when I was just placing my deck on the table, and he was so happy for his hand that he played land and artifacts when I had just finished to view my 6-cards hand. I take some time to evaluate my hand, and I finally say something like "I keep my hand, but please note that you gave me free informations. Please wait for your opponent to say keep or mulligan before starting on the play."
Another guy (not involved in the FNM), who was watching us, scolded me saying "It was your duty to stop him at the first card he was playing, YOU would get a game loss for that. Not him."
At which point, I tell him to BEEP off and I sarcastly conceded on the spot "as if" he was the judge handing me a game loss. Then, I proceeded to tell the TO my result and the outcome of game 3: he duly noted the result and wisely didn't comment the story.
Now the questions is double:
A) was that guy right and it was my duty to stop my opponent? What sanction is handed to a player at a Tournament level?
B) I'm pretty sure that the guy had to be silent during the match, should he have reported that phrase to the judge instead? Since he was not part of the Sanctioned Event (and thus, not sanctionable with warning of sorts), what kind of actions could a judge do? Kick him off of the shop?
It's like if a Mr. John Doe comes to a PTQ of his choice and starts blabbering at matches. He may have a DCI number, but he's not playing so he doesn't care what players/judges can do to him (phisical attacks aside ^^).
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
and call for a judge... In this situation I wouldn't be penalising either palyer... No-one's really done anything wrong (the most it could be would be a GPE-Game Rule Violation, coz he played cards when he wasn't meant to)... This feels just like a miss-communication problem... When you've said "you've just given me extra information" that starts ringing warning bells though, I'd probably pull you aside and have a chat... If I were in your position I would try and catch my opponent as he played the first card...
As for the game state, I couldn't barely block him from casting one-two-three-four cards in a couple of seconds while I was evaluating my hand. Thus I took extra seconds to evaluate my hand AND my opponent's fast start since it was a free information to me. That's why (interference aside) I ask if the guy's opinion was legitimate or not: I didn't cheat, but I took what I was offered and I still believe I could have mulliganed again if I so ever wished.
The OP's scenario is not an example of outside assistance. There was no strategic information given, the spectator should be instructed that his actions were not appropriate for his role in the tournament. If the spectator continues to be disruptive then the TO can remove him from the venue.
This is not an example of cheating. It is never a player's responsibility to prevent an opponent from breaking the rules. It is a player's responsibility to call a judge after the fact.
Additionally players are allowed to reveal hidden information that they have access to and opponents are allowed to take advantage of that revealed information.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
@Merestill Haye:
From the original post: This is nowhere near outside assistance... Just the spectator being a bit of a jerk and thinking he knows what he's saying (which he doesn't).
What you describe is Fraud and this is why I said this is where I'd be doing my investigation...
Sincerely, LOL
And thanks to everyone for the clarifications on many aspects.
There's just one more thing:
So, you would investigate me for having watched my opponent play cards and reveal them to me. Did I understand correctly?
A few answers to your hypothetical questions:
Yes, I gained an advantage, knowing how my opponent would start.
Maybe, I could have stopped my opponent from starting early.
And finally no, I feel I haven't done anything wrong, and Exsam backs me out:
What would you result from your investigation, then?
The individual who thought he knew what he didn't know, on the other hand, was clearly doing something wrong. I do not know if it would result in someone being forced to enroll in the tournament, given a forced upon DCI number, and registered a game loss. I would certainly instruct him to keep his opinions to himself beyond suggesting that the players stop the game and call a judge. If he continues to act in his know-it-all manner, I would instruct him to leave the premesis.
I just don't see any way of forcing someone to obtain a DCI number. Even in that situation, you basically have handed him points for participating in an event that he did not participate in. Even with a loss and without a win, he would still get the basic points for entering and showing up. This is a terrible solution to a bad situation.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
That's not true. In order to receive participation points, you have to play at least one round. This person didn't play any rounds.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
You still have not addressed the fact that there is nothing in the rules that can force someone to enter the event, force them to obtain a DCI number, and then give them the game loss.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
I wasn't trying to address that. You're right, no such provision exists for giving a Game Loss. It does, however, exist for disqualifications. From the Infraction Procedure Guide:
In the situation at hand, I would simply ask the spectator to leave the premises if he continues to be a nuisance, in according with the following sentence from the Infraction Procedure Guide's section on Outside Assistance:
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
When people butt in to my games I react depending on how they interfered, if it's a simple comment like "Oh damn, look at that creature" or "Wow that's a cool combo" no biggie, he's just commenting on the game state, but if he starts being a rules lawyer when he didn't need to be or starts making comments like "I wouldn't do that, you should see what your opponents has in his hand" I tell them to bugger off.
Agreed. Rulings should only be made when solicited. Otherwise, someone is just butting in.
(No, I am not referring to these threads, because obviously someone is soliciting a ruling by posting here.)
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list