"903.3. Each deck has a legendary creature card designated as its commander. This designation is not a characteristic of the object represented by the card; rather, it is an attribute of the card itself. The card retains this designation even when it changes zones."
An example they use is that a face down commander is still a commander. Does this mean that a player with multiple face down creatures must let people know which is their commander? What does this mean when a commander is shuffled into a library? Is the location of the commander in the library public information?
yes, a face down commander must be identifiable at all times as the commander. The comp rules don't fully cover how to handle a commander in a library, but the EDH/Commander rules committee has stated their position to be a commander's position in a library is also public information. They recommend using a different colored sleeve to make it obvious. The potential for manipulating the library while shuffling or cutting because of the known position has been treated as unlikely to be a serious problem.
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This is how you handle face-down generals. You do not have a seperate sleeve, you do not track where the general is at all times in unknown zones like the library. If at any time a player sees a general in an unknown zone, they reveal it and it goes to the command zone face-up.
This is how you handle face-down generals. You do not have a seperate sleeve, you do not track where the general is at all times in unknown zones like the library. If at any time a player sees a general in an unknown zone, they reveal it and it goes to the command zone face-up.
You are misinterpreting that particular rules update.
This ONLY applies to an effect that would EXILE the general face down.
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This is how you handle face-down generals. You do not have a seperate sleeve, you do not track where the general is at all times in unknown zones like the library. If at any time a player sees a general in an unknown zonein exile, they reveal it and it goes to the command zone face-up.
The post you're referencing is directly related to Praetor's Grasp and the handful of other things that function similarly, that move a card from a library to exile face down. Previously, you could Spin into Myth someone's commander to the bottom of their library, then Grasp it to exile face down, which would not allow a player the opportunity to move it back to the command zone (unlike, for example, Jester's Cap, which exiles face up and would give the player that option). This change doesn't have anything to do with 'unknown zones' or the library, only face-down in exile.
As for having the commander sleeved differently/known in non-public zones, I've never seen anything official either way, but I know people who play both ways, and I've never noticed a particular difference/benefit in either method.
Edit: Nath'd on the clarification of the Rules Committee post
yes, a face down commander must be identifiable at all times as the commander. The comp rules don't fully cover how to handle a commander in a library, but the EDH/Commander rules committee has stated their position to be a commander's position in a library is also public information. They recommend using a different colored sleeve to make it obvious. The potential for manipulating the library while shuffling or cutting because of the known position has been treated as unlikely to be a serious problem.
This is incorrect and has been clarified. The Commander retains its commanderness in the library, but that has no actual game relevance and does not need to be tracked.
(this works because it's a singleton format and thus there's only one card in the library with the commander's name)
This is how you handle face-down generals. You do not have a seperate sleeve, you do not track where the general is at all times in unknown zones like the library. If at any time a player sees a general in an unknown zone, they reveal it and it goes to the command zone face-up.
When this happens, can the person who stole it cast it from the command zone, its owner cast it from the command zone, or both?
This is incorrect and has been clarified. The Commander retains its commanderness in the library, but that has no actual game relevance and does not need to be tracked.
(this works because it's a singleton format and thus there's only one card in the library with the commander's name)
Right, but he says it "has been clarified", which implies that there's a more complete explanation somewhere. Is there a link to said explanation available?
Because he is on the EDH Rules Committee if that wasn't clear. There is also an older thread you can read discussing sleeves and public information, blind shuffle, etc.
Ah, I did not realize he was on the rules committee. That's well enough. I have another question: You say the commander is still a commander in the library, but this has no game relevance. So this means that the location of the general in a library is hidden knowledge? For purposes of, say, naming a card with Tunnel Vision, for example.
Ah, I did not realize he was on the rules committee. That's well enough. I have another question: You say the commander is still a commander in the library, but this has no game relevance. So this means that the location of the general in a library is hidden knowledge? For purposes of, say, naming a card with Tunnel Vision, for example.
Sorry to "necro" this thread, but since it is linked to in a current EDH forum thread, I would like to add what some of the official game rules say about this...
papa_funk has stated that as per the EDH Rules Committee, a general's location is considered hidden in the library, as the library is defined as a hidden zone. The only hidden zones in the game are the hand and library, everything else is a public zone.
When cards are exiled face down, however, this is a modified hidden zone, where only the player who hid it face down can see what it is. However, the rules committee has made a clause for this situation. If a player's general is found with Praetor's Grasp, it must be revealed as a part of the general's identity. As a result, a clarified explanation for General Identity can be described as the usual, plus this:
When a general is in a public zone (on the battlefield, graveyard, exile or command zone), it must be made clear that this is a player's general.
Sorry to "necro" this thread, but since it is linked to in a current EDH forum thread, I would like to add what some of the official game rules say about this...
papa_funk has stated that as per the EDH Rules Committee, a general's location is considered hidden in the library, as the library is defined as a hidden zone. The only hidden zones in the game are the hand and library, everything else is a public zone.
When cards are exiled face down, however, this is a modified hidden zone, where only the player who hid it face down can see what it is. However, the rules committee has made a clause for this situation. If a player's general is found with Praetor's Grasp, it must be revealed as a part of the general's identity. As a result, a clarified explanation for General Identity can be described as the usual, plus this:
When a general is in a public zone (on the battlefield, graveyard, exile or command zone), it must be made clear that this is a player's general.
So if your general is Akroma, and she is returned to hand, and you play a morph, you have to identify the morph as not Akroma/is Akroma? That's unfortunate. (But necessary I suppose)
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
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An example they use is that a face down commander is still a commander. Does this mean that a player with multiple face down creatures must let people know which is their commander? What does this mean when a commander is shuffled into a library? Is the location of the commander in the library public information?
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This FAQ answers many of the common questions asked in the MTGS Rulings forum. Take a look!
I'm the editor/content manager of the Magic Rules Tips Blog - Bookmark this site for daily tips about game and tournament rules.
"Abstract concepts of perfect judging run headlong into the realities of how people play the game." - Toby Elliott (papa_funk)
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You are misinterpreting that particular rules update.
This ONLY applies to an effect that would EXILE the general face down.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
The post you're referencing is directly related to Praetor's Grasp and the handful of other things that function similarly, that move a card from a library to exile face down. Previously, you could Spin into Myth someone's commander to the bottom of their library, then Grasp it to exile face down, which would not allow a player the opportunity to move it back to the command zone (unlike, for example, Jester's Cap, which exiles face up and would give the player that option). This change doesn't have anything to do with 'unknown zones' or the library, only face-down in exile.
As for having the commander sleeved differently/known in non-public zones, I've never seen anything official either way, but I know people who play both ways, and I've never noticed a particular difference/benefit in either method.
Edit: Nath'd on the clarification of the Rules Committee post
This is incorrect and has been clarified. The Commander retains its commanderness in the library, but that has no actual game relevance and does not need to be tracked.
(this works because it's a singleton format and thus there's only one card in the library with the commander's name)
When this happens, can the person who stole it cast it from the command zone, its owner cast it from the command zone, or both?
It simply goes back to the owners command zone and is treated as regular from then on. The stealer gets nothing.
Do you have a source for this?
L2 Judge
Erm, he IS the source.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
Right, but he says it "has been clarified", which implies that there's a more complete explanation somewhere. Is there a link to said explanation available?
Because he is on the EDH Rules Committee if that wasn't clear. There is also an older thread you can read discussing sleeves and public information, blind shuffle, etc.
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=49534&f=3#p49534
That was Genomancer discussing the topic, also on the Rules Committee
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
L2 Judge
Correct.
papa_funk has stated that as per the EDH Rules Committee, a general's location is considered hidden in the library, as the library is defined as a hidden zone. The only hidden zones in the game are the hand and library, everything else is a public zone.
When cards are exiled face down, however, this is a modified hidden zone, where only the player who hid it face down can see what it is. However, the rules committee has made a clause for this situation. If a player's general is found with Praetor's Grasp, it must be revealed as a part of the general's identity. As a result, a clarified explanation for General Identity can be described as the usual, plus this:
When a general is in a public zone (on the battlefield, graveyard, exile or command zone), it must be made clear that this is a player's general.
So if your general is Akroma, and she is returned to hand, and you play a morph, you have to identify the morph as not Akroma/is Akroma? That's unfortunate. (But necessary I suppose)
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)