MY friend make a proliferate deck that revolves about puting -1/-1 and he played it against my arcbound deck....
from rule •420.5n - If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. [CompRules 2006/10/01]...
so if i have a arcound fiend that comes into play with 3 +1/+1 counters on it and he puts a -1/-1 counter on it does the counter instanly go away or does it stay there. or do both counters added separately...because you can read that rule two to there times and it seems like it does both..because we got into it because math makes since they would cancel out but would the -1/-1 counter be removed due to that rule that i have mor +1/+1 counters on it...also if it does go away could still proliferate that -1/-1 counter before it does go away
That rule is a fancy way of saying they cancel out. The -1/-1 counter would be removed by that State Based Action that you quoted. You cannot Proliferate the -1/-1 counter as it goes away before a player would get priority.
Bottom line is +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other. As soon as State Based Actions are performed you will have a fiend with 2 +1/+1 counters on it. He will not have a chance to proliferate the counter
Whenever a permanent has both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters, a state based action will remove one of each until this is no longer true. The -1/-1 counter will shrink it appropriately, but in the end it will have two +1/+1 counters.
And FWIW, the rules you're referencing are out of date. The rule that you quoted hasn't changed, but it's been reorganized and now sits at 121.2. You might not want to keep an old copy of the rules around, you can get the latest at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer
One of the strange interaction of state based effects is that if a permanent has both +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it at the same time and that results in its toughness being 0 or less, the removal of counters and the placement of the creature in the graveyard happen as a single event. The strange thing is that any abilities that care about counters on the creature will see all the counters as it goes to the graveyard. So if an Arcbound Ravager has 3 +1/+1 counters, and it gets targeted by Skinrender's ability, it will be, when state-based actions are checked, a 0/0 creature with 3 +1/+1 counters and 3 -1/-1 counters and it is placed into its owner's graveyard. Modular will trigger for the 3 +1/+1 counters it had based on last known information.
Just wanted to share this rules-relevant fun-fact.
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so if i have a arcound fiend that comes into play with 3 +1/+1 counters on it and he puts a -1/-1 counter on it does the counter instanly go away or does it stay there. or do both counters added separately...because you can read that rule two to there times and it seems like it does both..because we got into it because math makes since they would cancel out but would the -1/-1 counter be removed due to that rule that i have mor +1/+1 counters on it...also if it does go away could still proliferate that -1/-1 counter before it does go away
And FWIW, the rules you're referencing are out of date. The rule that you quoted hasn't changed, but it's been reorganized and now sits at 121.2. You might not want to keep an old copy of the rules around, you can get the latest at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer
Just wanted to share this rules-relevant fun-fact.
This FAQ answers many of the common questions asked in the MTGS Rulings forum. Take a look!
I'm the editor/content manager of the Magic Rules Tips Blog - Bookmark this site for daily tips about game and tournament rules.
"Abstract concepts of perfect judging run headlong into the realities of how people play the game." - Toby Elliott (papa_funk)
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