Hivemind, Eye of the Storm, and shenanigans

  • #1
    Okay... my friends and I have been playing EDH. I had an Eye of the Storm and some stuff, and one of my buddies put a Hivemind into play. After Hivemind, he casts Guided Passage. The guy after him casts Evangelize, and in response, I cast Cryptic Command (countering and bouncing a Darksteel Colossus)...
    Can someone explain to me what happens? Perferably in a step-by-step to help us understand?


    Thanks to DarkNightCavalier


    Quote from Promatim
    In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
  • #2
    Quote from Dread318
    Okay... my friends and I have been playing EDH. I had an Eye of the Storm and some stuff, and one of my buddies put a Hivemind into play. After Hivemind, he casts Guided Passage. The guy after him casts Evangelize, and in response, I cast Cryptic Command (countering and bouncing a Darksteel Colossus)...
    Can someone explain to me what happens? Perferably in a step-by-step to help us understand?
    Oh dear lord...

    All right, if you want a full answer, we'll need to know on whose turn all of these things happened, as well as what the turn order is and who controlled both the Eye and the Hive Mind.
    Level 2 Magic Judge
    Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
    Knowledge knows no bounds.

    And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
    --Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
  • #3
    Okay, I can try to reenact as I best I can; W = Will (Vendilion Clique), R = Ryan (Intet), C = Cody (Jareth).

    W's Turn (~10) = Casts Eye of the Storm. R flashes in Hivemind via Vedalken Orrery. Pass.

    R's Turn = Casts Guided Passage. Simply enough, R's Passage gets put under Eye of the Storm, and W/C get copies of Passage via Hivemind. R's copy of Passage resolves through Eye of the Storm.

    C's Turn = Casts Evangelize targeting R. Darksteel Colossus is only creature. W casts Cryptic Command in response (choosing counter, targeting Evangelize, and bounce, targeting the Colossus).

    Is this enough information?


    Thanks to DarkNightCavalier


    Quote from Promatim
    In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
  • #4
    All right, let's work this out, then.

    Quote from Dread318
    R's Turn = Casts Guided Passage.
    Both the Eye and Hive Mind trigger when the Passage is cast; the Eye's trigger goes onto the stack on top of the Mind's. (This is because it's R's turn.)

    So first the Eye's trigger resolves, exiling the Passage and allowing R to recast it. Assuming he does so, the Hive triggers again.

    The second Hive trigger resolves, giving W and C Passages of their own. W's Passage resolves first, then C's.

    R's Passage resolves.

    The original Hive Mind trigger resolves, giving both W and C Passages again. Once again, W's Passage resolves first, then C's.

    That's it for this turn.

    Quote from Dread318
    C's Turn = Casts Evangelize targeting R. Darksteel Colossus is only creature.
    At this point, Hive Mind and Eye have both triggered; the Hive Mind's trigger is on top, above the Eye's trigger.

    There are two possibilities here. W could cast Cryptic Command right now, or he could wait until the Eye trigger resolves and the Evangelize is recast, then counter the copy. I'm going to assume the former.

    Quote from Dread318
    W casts Cryptic Command in response (choosing counter, targeting Evangelize, and bounce, targeting the Colossus).
    Both Hive and Eye trigger for the Command, with the Hive Mind trigger on top.

    Hive Mind's trigger for the Command resolves. R and C both get copies of the Command, with C's on top and R's below it. Both copies are of the Counter/Bounce mode. R chooses the targets for his copy before C does.

    After that...what happens depends on what targets they chose for their Command copies.

    C's Command will resolve, countering whichever spell he chose (he has to have chosen either the Evangelize, the original Command, or R's copy; he has no choice) and bouncing whichever permanent he chose.

    Assuming R's Command wasn't countered, it then resolves, counters whichever spell he chose (he had to choose the Evangelize or the original Command) and bounces whichever permanent he chose.

    And then, the Eye trigger for the original Command resolves.

    ...I'm posting this so we get at least this far. This will take a while.
    Level 2 Magic Judge
    Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
    Knowledge knows no bounds.

    And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
    --Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
  • #5
    Quote from Dread318
    Okay, I can try to reenact as I best I can; W = Will (Vendilion Clique), R = Ryan (Intet), C = Cody (Jareth).

    W's Turn (~10) = Casts Eye of the Storm. R flashes in Hivemind via Vedalken Orrery. Pass.

    R's Turn = Casts Guided Passage. Simply enough, R's Passage gets put under Eye of the Storm, and W/C get copies of Passage via Hivemind. R's copy of Passage resolves through Eye of the Storm.


    Sounds like there's already a problem here. Here's where it gets tricky. Here's the stack as soon as R casts the Guided Passage:
    (top)
    Hive Mind trigger from R's Passage
    Eye of the Storm trigger from R's Passage
    R's Guided Passage

    Next, Hive Mind resolves. Stack:
    (top)
    W's Guided Passage
    C's Guided Passage
    Eye of the Storm trigger from R's Passage
    R's Guided Passage

    Once W and C resolve their Passages, Eye of the Storm will resolve. R's Guided Passage is exiled, and then he gets to copy it and cast it. Now, since he cast it from Eye of the Storm, Hive Mind triggers again:

    (top)
    W's Guided Passage
    C's Guided Passage
    R's Guided Passage

    It sounds like W and C only resolved Guided Passage once, but they should have resolved two copies apiece (R, unfortunately for him, only gets one Guided Passage to resolve.)

    Edit: I misread as Eye of the Storm being controlled by R, and Hive Mind being controlled by W. GrifterMage is correct in the trigger order, though the net result up till that point is the same (two Passages for W and C, one for R).
    Last edited by Archonoid: 1/8/2010 4:02:27 PM
    DCI Rules Advisor
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  • #6
    All right, so last we checked, the stack looked like this:

    Top
    Eye trigger (Command 1)
    Cryptic Command 1
    Hive Mind trigger (Evangelize 1)
    Eye trigger (Evangelize 1)
    Evangelize 1
    Bottom

    The Eye trigger for the original Command resolves. If the original Command hasn't been countered by this point, it gets put under the Eye. W gets a chance to cast everything under the Eye. (If the original Command has been countered by this point, he just gets Guided Passage. If it wasn't countered, he gets both Command and Passage.) He casts whichever he can in whichever order he wants.

    If Hive Mind hasn't been bounced by one of the copied Commands, it triggers for everything he cast, and those triggers are put onto the stack in whichever order R likes.

    ...To get any further, we'll have to know--was the original Command countered? And was Hive Mind (and/or the Eye) bounced?

    If it wasn't countered, in which order did W cast the Passage and Command copies, and in which order did R put the Hive triggers on the stack?
    Level 2 Magic Judge
    Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
    Knowledge knows no bounds.

    And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
    --Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
  • #7
    Quote from Dread318
    Okay, I can try to reenact as I best I can; W = Will (Vendilion Clique), R = Ryan (Intet), C = Cody (Jareth).

    W's Turn (~10) = Casts Eye of the Storm. R flashes in Hivemind via Vedalken Orrery. Pass.

    R's Turn = Casts Guided Passage. Simply enough, R's Passage gets put under Eye of the Storm, and W/C get copies of Passage via Hivemind. R's copy of Passage resolves through Eye of the Storm.
    Not quite right, I'm afraid.

    The casting of Guided Passage triggers both enchantments. it looks like Eye resolves first, which removes the GP and copies it; if the spell is cast, Hive Mind triggers again.

    Assuming no other actions, Hive Mind creates copies of GP for W and C, then the Eye-provided copy of GP resolves under R's control, then the original Hive Mind trigger resolves, copying GP for W and C again. Result : two copies of GP for W, two copies for C and one for R.

    C's Turn = Casts Evangelize targeting R. Darksteel Colossus is only creature. W casts Cryptic Command in response (choosing counter, targeting Evangelize, and bounce, targeting the Colossus).

    Is this enough information?
    Here we go.

    After the casting of the Command, the stack looks like this.
    Hive Mind [Cryptic Command]
    EotS [Cryptic Command]
    Cryptic Command (Evangelize; Colossus)
    Hive Mind trigger [Evangelize]
    EotS trigger [Evangelize]
    Evangelize (R)
    Assuming no other actions, Hive Mind's trigger resolves. This gives R and C copies of CC, with the modes that W chose, put on the stack (probably in turn order so R first then C). As each copy goes on the stack, with its controller getting the chance to retarget either or both of the modes.

    You'll need to play out the scenario step by step for yourself from here. Remember, each time the EotS trigger resolves the player who cast the spell gets to remove the spell that triggered the Eye, then cast a copy of any card in the Eye, and that each card so cast triggers Hive Mind, which will give copies of the spell he just cast to his opponents.

    I suggest that you write down each spell and ability going onto the stack, in order, then cross them off as they resolve.
    Lapsed Rules Adviser.
  • #8
    Quote from GrifterMage
    All right, let's work this out, then.

    Both the Eye and Hive Mind trigger when the Passage is cast; the Eye's trigger goes onto the stack on top of the Mind's. (This is because it's R's turn.)

    So first the Eye's trigger resolves, exiling the Passage and allowing R to recast it. Assuming he does so, the Hive triggers again.

    The second Hive trigger resolves, giving W and C Passages of their own. W's Passage resolves first, then C's.

    R's Passage resolves.

    The original Hive Mind trigger resolves, giving both W and C Passages again. Once again, W's Passage resolves first, then C's.

    That's it for this turn.

    At this point, Hive Mind and Eye have both triggered; the Hive Mind's trigger is on top, above the Eye's trigger.

    There are two possibilities here. W could cast Cryptic Command right now, or he could wait until the Eye trigger resolves and the Evangelize is recast, then counter the copy. I'm going to assume the former.

    Both Hive and Eye trigger for the Command, with the Hive Mind trigger on top.

    Hive Mind's trigger for the Command resolves. R and C both get copies of the Command, with C's on top and R's below it. Both copies are of the Counter/Bounce mode. R chooses the targets for his copy before C does.

    After that...what happens depends on what targets they chose for their Command copies.

    C's Command will resolve, countering whichever spell he chose (he has to have chosen either the Evangelize, the original Command, or R's copy; he has no choice) and bouncing whichever permanent he chose.

    Assuming R's Command wasn't countered, it then resolves, counters whichever spell he chose (he had to choose the Evangelize or the original Command) and bounces whichever permanent he chose.

    And then, the Eye trigger for the original Command resolves.

    ...I'm posting this so we get at least this far. This will take a while.


    @Archonoid: Yes, we each only resolved one copy of Guided Passage because we thought that Eye of the Storm would work as a replacement effect. What I didn't realize was that it was a generic trigger and that Hive Mind triggers off of it and the Eye of the Storm triggers as well.

    Okay, so wouldn't it be useless for W to counter the original Evangelize, seeing as how it's going to be exiled and copied regardless? The CARD is removed from the stack there fore won't resolve, so the only smart thing to do would be to target the copy of Evangelize.
    So for a moment, the stack will be like this;
    C's Evangelize, Hive Mind's Trigger
    which will turn into>
    R's Evangelize Hive Mind Trigger, W's Evangelize Hive Mind Trigger, C's Evangelize Eye trigger, C's Guided Passage Eye trigger.
    Which will then turn into>
    R's Guided Passage Eye Trigger, R's Evangelize Eye trigger, R's Evangelize Hive Mind Trigger, W's Guided Passage Eye Trigger, W's Evangelize Eye trigger, W's Evangelize Hive Mind Trigger, C's Evangelize Eye trigger, C's Evangelize Hive Mind trigger, C's Guided Passage Eye trigger

    Is this right? Since every time they cast a copy they get the Guided Passage and Evangelize AGAIN from Eye of the Storm?

    Also, does everyone's Cryptic copies give them another Evangelize/Guided Passage?


    Thanks to DarkNightCavalier


    Quote from Promatim
    In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
  • #9
    Quote from Dread318
    Okay, so wouldn't it be useless for W to counter the original Evangelize, seeing as how it's going to be exiled and copied regardless?
    Not quite right. If it gets countered before its Eye trigger resolves, it won't be exiled, so it can't be copied by the Eye. So there is indeed a point to countering it. Which is why I asked which W did.

    (Both W and R will (eventually) be getting copies from Hive Mind whether it gets countered or not, though.)
    Level 2 Magic Judge
    Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
    Knowledge knows no bounds.

    And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
    --Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
  • #10
    Quote from GrifterMage
    All right, so last we checked, the stack looked like this:

    Top
    Eye trigger (Command 1)
    Cryptic Command 1
    Hive Mind trigger (Evangelize 1)
    Eye trigger (Evangelize 1)
    Evangelize 1
    Bottom

    The Eye trigger for the original Command resolves. If the original Command hasn't been countered by this point, it gets put under the Eye. W gets a chance to cast everything under the Eye. (If the original Command has been countered by this point, he just gets Guided Passage. If it wasn't countered, he gets both Command and Passage.) He casts whichever he can in whichever order he wants.

    If Hive Mind hasn't been bounced by one of the copied Commands, it triggers for everything he cast, and those triggers are put onto the stack in whichever order R likes.

    ...To get any further, we'll have to know--was the original Command countered? And was Hive Mind (and/or the Eye) bounced?

    If it wasn't countered, in which order did W cast the Passage and Command copies, and in which order did R put the Hive triggers on the stack?


    I think I understand a little better now. One thing I am confused about is this;
    The person who cast the spell in this situation (Guided Passage, Evangelize and Cryptic) will only get one copy, and then everyone else will get two copies of that spell. But then the person who did the casting will also get the previous spells.
    So in this case;
    C has to resolve: 1 Evangelize and 1 Guided Passage.
    W has to resolve: 2 Evangelizes.
    R has to resolve: 2 Evangelizes.
    And then W casts Cryptic targeting C's Evangelize, and he gets another Evangelize and a Guided Passage (for a total of 3 Evangelizes, 1 Cryptic and 1 Guided Passage.
    C then resolves: 2 Cryptics and 1 Guided Passage.
    R then resolves: 2 Cryptics 2 Evangelizes and 1 Guided Passage.
    Am I getting the right idea?


    Thanks to DarkNightCavalier


    Quote from Promatim
    In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
  • #11
    Quote from Dread318
    The person who cast the spell in this situation (Guided Passage, Evangelize and Cryptic) will only get one copy, and then everyone else will get two copies of that spell. But then the person who did the casting will also get the previous spells.
    And so will everyone else, thanks to the Hive Mind.

    Note that when determining which spells a player gets from the Eye, it doesn't matter what order the spells were cast in. All that matters is whether or not the Eye has exiled them yet.

    Quote from Dread318
    So in this case;
    C has to resolve: 1 Evangelize and 1 Guided Passage.
    W has to resolve: 2 Evangelizes.
    R has to resolve: 2 Evangelizes.
    And then W casts Cryptic targeting C's Evangelize, and he gets another Evangelize and a Guided Passage (for a total of 3 Evangelizes, 1 Cryptic and 1 Guided Passage.
    C then resolves: 2 Cryptics and 1 Guided Passage.
    R then resolves: 2 Cryptics 2 Evangelizes and 1 Guided Passage.
    Am I getting the right idea?
    You forgot that the Hive Mind will retrigger for all the spells cast off of the Eye, not just the 'original' one.

    So if someone casts Spell A, with spells B and C under the eye, that player gets A, B, and C, and each other player gets A, A, B, and C.
    Level 2 Magic Judge
    Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
    Knowledge knows no bounds.

    And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
    --Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
  • #12
    Quote from GrifterMage
    And so will everyone else, thanks to the Hive Mind.

    Note that when determining which spells a player gets from the Eye, it doesn't matter what order the spells were cast in. All that matters is whether or not the Eye has exiled them yet.

    You forgot that the Hive Mind will retrigger for all the spells cast off of the Eye, not just the 'original' one.

    So if someone casts Spell A, with spells B and C under the eye, that player gets A, B, and C, and each other player gets A, A, B, and C.


    So what you're saying is that this is theoretically an endless loop? For each spell, an opponent gets copies, and the caster get copy, plus all that "luggage" from Eye. And then everyone gets those "luggage" copies.


    Thanks to DarkNightCavalier


    Quote from Promatim
    In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
  • #13
    Quote from Dread318
    So what you're saying is that this is theoretically an endless loop?
    Endless? No. Just tediously long. :p

    Quote from Dread318
    For each spell, an opponent gets copies, and the caster get copy, plus all that "luggage" from Eye. And then everyone gets those "luggage" copies.
    For each spell, the original player (eventually) gets that spell plus the "luggage", while everyone else gets two of the original plus the rest of the "luggage".

    However, the exact order all of this happens in is dependent on whose turn it is, who cast the spell, and who controls the Eye and Hive Mind. So if the order matters (which it often will), things might get very, very confusing.
    Level 2 Magic Judge
    Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
    Knowledge knows no bounds.

    And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
    --Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
  • #14
    Okay. Thank you so much for your help.


    Thanks to DarkNightCavalier


    Quote from Promatim
    In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
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