Hey two question
1. If a player uses one of their planes walker -something ability like an ultimate and they only have enough for that ultimate and inresponse to them activating the ability i lightning bolt the planeswalker does the ability not resolve and the planeswalker die cuase he still must pay the cost of the ability?
2. In the new card Mindbreak Trap (sorry if we are not suppose to discuss this yet) what does exile any number of spells mean?
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- Woapalanne
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
The cost for a spell or ability is paid before it is put on the stack. Once it is on the stack, it exists separate from its source, and no matter if you kill or bounce or tap the source, the ability will still resolve.
For Mindbreak Trap you can target any number of spells on the stack and they are put into the exiled zone. They do not resolve.
What you could do during scenario 1 is bolt the planeswalker before its controller gets a chance to use the relevant ability (you'll probably want to do this during your opponent's upkeep). That'll really only delay the "ultimate," though, so you'll probly want to come up with a more permanent solution later on.
The cost for a spell or ability is paid before it is put on the stack. Once it is on the stack, it exists separate from its source, and no matter if you kill or bounce or tap the source, the ability will still resolve.
I am still learning the fine details of the game, so I would like some clairification on this statement. From what I gathered based on what he is saying is that the ability still resolves if you responded by adding something to the stack to kill the Plainswalker. Mmm.. Here's a related example...
I have Garruk Wildspeaker in play with 4 loyalty counters on him and I activate -4 ability, thus removing the 4 counters. My opponent responds with an instant Lightning Bolt or and adds it to the stack.
In this example wouldn't Garruk Wildspeaker be destroyed before his ability would resolve. Resulting in his effect never taking place?
I'm confused...
Wouldn't that be the same as if a Royal Assassin tapped and targeting a Tapped Goblin to be destroyed, but then an opponent responds with a Lightning Bolt added to the stack to destory the Royal Assassin. Thus saving his Goblin from being destoryed?
I thought this was how the game (stack) worked... Guess I need some clairification please...
I have Garruk Wildspeaker in play with 4 loyalty counters on him and I activate -4 ability, thus removing the 4 counters. My opponent responds with an instant Lightning Bolt or and adds it to the stack.
In this example wouldn't Garruk Wildspeaker be destroyed before his ability would resolve. Resulting in his effect never taking place?
No, once an ability is activated, it exists independently of its source. Once Garruk's ability is activated and the four loyalty counters removed, the ability is already on the stack. Furthermore, Garruk is put into the graveyard just after the ability has been activated (due to state-based actions).
Wouldn't that be the same as if a Royal Assassin tapped and targeting a Tapped Goblin to be destroyed, but then an opponent responds with a Lightning Bolt added to the stack to destory the Royal Assassin. Thus saving his Goblin from being destoryed?
No, that doesn't work the way you think it works. Once Royal Assassin's ability has been activated, it resolves regardless of what happens to Royal Assassin.
Actually both examples are incorrect. Two things to remember:
1) costs are paid as part of playing a spell/ability. The act of playing a spell/ability is completed in full before the opponent has the chance to respond with their own spells/abilities. i.e. Abilities/spells can be responded to, but paying the costs for them can not.
2) once an ability has been played, removing the source of the ability does not counter the ability.
Therefore:
- because removing counters is a cost for the ability, the 4 counters on Grul are already gone (and the game will already have moved him to the graveyard) before the opponent can even cast the lightning bolt.
- destroying the Royal Assassin will not stop the fact that the royal assassin's ability is already on the stack; the common analogy is that the assassin already threw his grenade and you shot him before it landed, but the grenade is still incoming.
Wow… this blows my mind. Me and all my friends have been playing Magic wrong then. So I’m going to ask another question for further clarification to help me grasp this concept. Thank you in advance for your patience and to all who reply.
I always thought that spells/abilities on the stack resolve starting from the last card played working backwards.
What would happen in this example then…
I have a Spearbreaker Behemoth on the field with Ant Queen. I declare I am paying the 1 mana to make Ant Queen Indestructible for the turn. My opponent adds a Doom Blade to the stack stating he will destroy target Ant Queen.
How does this play out? I used to think since Doom Blade was on top of the stack and the Ant Queen is destroyed before my Indestructible effect would be resolved.
Now I have no idea how the stack works… guess I need to read the rulebook again really slowly. LoL.
I have a Spearbreaker Behemoth on the field with Ant Queen. I declare I am paying the 1 mana to make Ant Queen Indestructible for the turn. My opponent adds a Doom Blade to the stack stating he will destroy target Ant Queen.
How does this play out? I used to think since Doom Blade was on top of the stack and the Ant Queen is destroyed before my Indestructible effect would be resolved.
Now I have no idea how the stack works… guess I need to read the rulebook again really slowly. LoL.
I believe this is a totally different situation. So, you decide to make Ant Queen indestructible with Spearbreaker Behemoth's ability. Then, in response, your opponent casts Doom Blade, targeting the Ant Queen. She would indeed die. The Doom Blade resolves, killing the Ant Queen, and when the Spearbreaker Behemoth's ability resolves, its target is gone (destroyed), so nothing happens. At least, I think that's how it works. And in theory, if you had the mana, I believe you could make the Ant Queen indestructible again, and that would then resolve before the Doom Blade, protecting her.
I understand your confusion with the stack though. Until the middle of August this year, after playing on and off for two years, my friends and I believed that if you used Royal Assassin's ability, but an opponent killed it on the stack, its ability would not trigger. But no, once the cost of an ability is played, it goes through no matter what happens to the thing that used the ability. Your only real response is to kill/exile/bounce the object targeted, in which case the ability still goes off, but without a target, like in the example with the Ant Queen.
And to anyone who reads this: If I'm wrong, or if you have a better explanation (very likely), do step in. I've found that after a couple years, I'm really just beginning to grasp the game, so I'm never completely sure.
I have a Spearbreaker Behemoth on the field with Ant Queen. I declare I am paying the 1 mana to make Ant Queen Indestructible for the turn. My opponent adds a Doom Blade to the stack stating he will destroy target Ant Queen.
How does this play out? I used to think since Doom Blade was on top of the stack and the Ant Queen is destroyed before my Indestructible effect would be resolved.
This is correct. Spearbreaker Behemoth's ability is put onto the stack when it is activated, and it doesn't resolve until both players pass. Doom Blade is cast while that ability is on the stack (your opponent chooses to cast the spell rather than just pass), and will resolve first (since it was the object last added to the stack). Ant Queen is destroyed before Sprearbreaker Behemoth's ability resolves (which it will be countered, since its only target is gone).
Okay so the stack works as I thought, it's just that when it comes time to resolve the next card on the stack and it is unable to find its legal target (Target now has Shroud or has been Destroyed for example) then it counters the card.
Yeah, one way of thinking of the abilities is like a hand grenade. If I throw a hand grenade at you and you shoot me, I die. But my hand grenade (activated ability) still explodes and blows you up. (The ability resolves independently of whether I am alive)
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Abilities exist independently of their source. It's like shooting a guy after he throws a grenade. The grenade is still coming. But if you remove the target, the ability is countered upon resolution. It's like a grenade, if the guy you threw your grenade at disappears, it won't explo.... wait what?
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1. If a player uses one of their planes walker -something ability like an ultimate and they only have enough for that ultimate and inresponse to them activating the ability i lightning bolt the planeswalker does the ability not resolve and the planeswalker die cuase he still must pay the cost of the ability?
2. In the new card Mindbreak Trap (sorry if we are not suppose to discuss this yet) what does exile any number of spells mean?
You need card tags in future posts. Read the Forum Guidelines.
- Woapalanne
For Mindbreak Trap you can target any number of spells on the stack and they are put into the exiled zone. They do not resolve.
I am still learning the fine details of the game, so I would like some clairification on this statement. From what I gathered based on what he is saying is that the ability still resolves if you responded by adding something to the stack to kill the Plainswalker. Mmm.. Here's a related example...
I have Garruk Wildspeaker in play with 4 loyalty counters on him and I activate -4 ability, thus removing the 4 counters. My opponent responds with an instant Lightning Bolt or and adds it to the stack.
In this example wouldn't Garruk Wildspeaker be destroyed before his ability would resolve. Resulting in his effect never taking place?
I'm confused...
Wouldn't that be the same as if a Royal Assassin tapped and targeting a Tapped Goblin to be destroyed, but then an opponent responds with a Lightning Bolt added to the stack to destory the Royal Assassin. Thus saving his Goblin from being destoryed?
I thought this was how the game (stack) worked... Guess I need some clairification please...
No, once an ability is activated, it exists independently of its source. Once Garruk's ability is activated and the four loyalty counters removed, the ability is already on the stack. Furthermore, Garruk is put into the graveyard just after the ability has been activated (due to state-based actions).
No, that doesn't work the way you think it works. Once Royal Assassin's ability has been activated, it resolves regardless of what happens to Royal Assassin.
1) costs are paid as part of playing a spell/ability. The act of playing a spell/ability is completed in full before the opponent has the chance to respond with their own spells/abilities. i.e. Abilities/spells can be responded to, but paying the costs for them can not.
2) once an ability has been played, removing the source of the ability does not counter the ability.
Therefore:
- because removing counters is a cost for the ability, the 4 counters on Grul are already gone (and the game will already have moved him to the graveyard) before the opponent can even cast the lightning bolt.
- destroying the Royal Assassin will not stop the fact that the royal assassin's ability is already on the stack; the common analogy is that the assassin already threw his grenade and you shot him before it landed, but the grenade is still incoming.
I always thought that spells/abilities on the stack resolve starting from the last card played working backwards.
What would happen in this example then…
I have a Spearbreaker Behemoth on the field with Ant Queen. I declare I am paying the 1 mana to make Ant Queen Indestructible for the turn. My opponent adds a Doom Blade to the stack stating he will destroy target Ant Queen.
How does this play out? I used to think since Doom Blade was on top of the stack and the Ant Queen is destroyed before my Indestructible effect would be resolved.
Now I have no idea how the stack works… guess I need to read the rulebook again really slowly. LoL.
I believe this is a totally different situation. So, you decide to make Ant Queen indestructible with Spearbreaker Behemoth's ability. Then, in response, your opponent casts Doom Blade, targeting the Ant Queen. She would indeed die. The Doom Blade resolves, killing the Ant Queen, and when the Spearbreaker Behemoth's ability resolves, its target is gone (destroyed), so nothing happens. At least, I think that's how it works. And in theory, if you had the mana, I believe you could make the Ant Queen indestructible again, and that would then resolve before the Doom Blade, protecting her.
I understand your confusion with the stack though. Until the middle of August this year, after playing on and off for two years, my friends and I believed that if you used Royal Assassin's ability, but an opponent killed it on the stack, its ability would not trigger. But no, once the cost of an ability is played, it goes through no matter what happens to the thing that used the ability. Your only real response is to kill/exile/bounce the object targeted, in which case the ability still goes off, but without a target, like in the example with the Ant Queen.
And to anyone who reads this: If I'm wrong, or if you have a better explanation (very likely), do step in. I've found that after a couple years, I'm really just beginning to grasp the game, so I'm never completely sure.
That is correct. The object last put onto the stack is the first to resolve. Or last-in/first-out.
This is correct. Spearbreaker Behemoth's ability is put onto the stack when it is activated, and it doesn't resolve until both players pass. Doom Blade is cast while that ability is on the stack (your opponent chooses to cast the spell rather than just pass), and will resolve first (since it was the object last added to the stack). Ant Queen is destroyed before Sprearbreaker Behemoth's ability resolves (which it will be countered, since its only target is gone).
Ok makes sense to me now. I think... *sigh*..
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