Let's say that in an attempt to better communicate with the other drafters, you re-order the contents of each booster that passes through your hands during the first pack. You take your card, then you order the remaining cards from front to back:
Cards that are not in the colors you're drafting
Basic Land
Cards that are in the colors you're drafting
Essentially you're telling the next guy, pick something from the front or we're going to be fighting over colors for the rest of the draft.
You don't specifically tell the next guy in line what you're doing, but by word of mouth several other players know this trick and can interpret it.
The tournament rules state:
"Players may not reveal their card selections, the contents of their current packs, or their drafted cards to other participants in the draft and must make a reasonable effort to keep that information from the sight of other players. Players are not permitted to reveal information of any kind to other participants in the draft regarding their own picks or what they want others to pick."
Would this systematic re-ordering break these rules, assuming you didn't announce you were doing it? To my knowledge, there are no rules stating you must preserve the original order of cards in the pack so how could it be an offense?
If I am not mistaken there is a ruleing where you have to shuffle your pack. I might be wrong though and shuffling a pack is just what pros, to prevent either cut-off in colors or force your oppenent to figure out the right colors to choose. You would only want to do that land splitting strategy to tell the person you are passing to on the left not to take those colors for the second pack.
For example, around my area there was a big cumotion about this a player would choose a card and put the playables at the front sorted by color as well to tell the person he was passing to go this color.
from what I can tell, that sort of thing constitutes as colluding with the other drafters and could be a Very Very Bad Thing. All it would take is one person to admit to the fact that the drafters are doing this and bam, that's 7 DQ's without prize and a likely investigation from the DCI.
As far as I'm concerned, the act constitutes cheating-fraud and should be penalized as such.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I think we can all agree that it seems like it *should* be illegal in the spirit of the game.
The real question though is, how can it be enforced? If one person admits that they are using this technique, couldn't the others just say they were oblivious to it? The key is that it's an unspoken agreement after all.
In other words, if they're not going to mandate that the cards stay in the order they were opened (and really how could you tell anyway), how can you determine the difference between shuffling the pack for the purpose of making your decision, and shuffling to send a message to the next guy?
Let's say that in an attempt to better communicate with the other drafters, you re-order the contents of each booster that passes through your hands during the first pack. You take your card, then you order the remaining cards from front to back:
Cards that are not in the colors you're drafting
Basic Land
Cards that are in the colors you're drafting
Essentially you're telling the next guy, pick something from the front or we're going to be fighting over colors for the rest of the draft.
You don't specifically tell the next guy in line what you're doing, but by word of mouth several other players know this trick and can interpret it.
The tournament rules state:
"Players may not reveal their card selections, the contents of their current packs, or their drafted cards to other participants in the draft and must make a reasonable effort to keep that information from the sight of other players. Players are not permitted to reveal information of any kind to other participants in the draft regarding their own picks or what they want others to pick."
Would this systematic re-ordering break these rules, assuming you didn't announce you were doing it? To my knowledge, there are no rules stating you must preserve the original order of cards in the pack so how could it be an offense?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the [mistaken] impression that tokens, rules cards, and basic land were removed from the pack after it was opened. As far as how it would work after that: there is no guarantee that you'll have a card of each color in every pack, so it would be easy to miscommunicate.
Besides, I really don't see how it would be to your advantage to indicate to your opponent which color you are drafting. Quite frankly, regardless of your color choice, your opponent should pick the strongest cards available to him/her. Finding out your opponent's color can be helpful for adding color-specific evasion/counters, but I sincerely doubt that it will work the way you imagine.
My recommendation: Just don't do it. If you suspect someone else is, call over a judge and get it resolved.
NOTa DCI Judge... Or any judge for that matter.
Not even a good judge of character. I could probably be Judge Dread, though. That sounds like an easy job. Guns... rocket boots... yeah...
Only the token card should be removed, not the basic land
7.7 Booster Draft Procedures
All players must open and draft the same type of booster at the same time. Players open their first booster pack and count the cards face-down, removing a token card if one is present.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
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Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
Signaling is when a player notices that because a good card in a particular color still remains in the pack, the players that have already seen the pack must not be playing that color. This is definitely different.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
Besides, I really don't see how it would be to your advantage to indicate to your opponent which color you are drafting. Quite frankly, regardless of your color choice, your opponent should pick the strongest cards available to him/her. Finding out your opponent's color can be helpful for adding color-specific evasion/counters, but I sincerely doubt that it will work the way you imagine.
Trust me, it's a big deal. If you fight over a color with someone near you, both of your decks are going to suffer. By cooperating, both of your decks get better.
The person receiving the signal in Pack 1 has the most to gain. They know what colors will be open in Packs 1 and 3. But it's also valuable to the guy sending the signal because he won't get cut off in Pack 2. Everybody wins. This is why I doubt players will call a judge about it, because it's helping them!
Also, this is not the same as traditional "signaling." Usually, signaling does not involve re-ordering packs, it's just guessing what is open based on the relative quality of colors available in the pack. What I'm asking about is a more explicit communication.
EDIT: I should note that shuffling the pack doesn't really do anything, as the signal discussed here is only valid between two people. So even if you hate the practice, any two players sitting next to each other could agree to it and use it, and you couldn't disrupt it.
Yes, "signaling" doesn't involve sending real signals. If you're sending real signals, it's against the spirit of the draft. You only choose or not choose, and hope that other players can pick up on what colors you're in or not. From now on I'm going to shuffle all my packs so that people don't do this bs re-ordering practice.
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A voice for Timmy.
Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Would this systematic re-ordering break these rules, assuming you didn't announce you were doing it? To my knowledge, there are no rules stating you must preserve the original order of cards in the pack so how could it be an offense?
It reminded me of a similar situation that was discussed back in 2003 on the Judge listserv. Specifically, an incident involving a couple of players wearing certain colored shirts to indicate the colors they would be drafting. It was nostalgic to revisit that conversation...
Anyhow, the short answer is, something like this could definitely be investigated if the behavior was observed and thought it was suspicious. And, if the head judge truly believed that something that he or she believed constituted cheating took place, then it would be handled accordingly. While it may be difficult to "prove", keep in mind that the Infraction Procedure Guide says the following:
Disqualification can occur without proof of action so long as the Head Judge determines sufficient information exists to believe the tournament’s integrity may have been compromised. It is recommended that the Head Judge’s report to the DCI reflect this fact.
Please don't forget that judges do play the game, and aren't entirely clueless when observing what may be a distinct ordering of the cards in the pack. And don't presume that judges are going to be oblivious to the fact of what information could be communicated; it may not be so precise as to know what exactly has been communicated, just enough to recognize or suspect that something is attempting to be communicated.
Such behavior may go unobserved at FNM or a Prerelease. But at a more competitive event, with judges observing the draft... Yes, you're likely to get some tougher questions.
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Let's say that in an attempt to better communicate with the other drafters, you re-order the contents of each booster that passes through your hands during the first pack. You take your card, then you order the remaining cards from front to back:
Cards that are not in the colors you're drafting
Basic Land
Cards that are in the colors you're drafting
Essentially you're telling the next guy, pick something from the front or we're going to be fighting over colors for the rest of the draft.
You don't specifically tell the next guy in line what you're doing, but by word of mouth several other players know this trick and can interpret it.
The tournament rules state:
"Players may not reveal their card selections, the contents of their current packs, or their drafted cards to other participants in the draft and must make a reasonable effort to keep that information from the sight of other players. Players are not permitted to reveal information of any kind to other participants in the draft regarding their own picks or what they want others to pick."
Would this systematic re-ordering break these rules, assuming you didn't announce you were doing it? To my knowledge, there are no rules stating you must preserve the original order of cards in the pack so how could it be an offense?
For example, around my area there was a big cumotion about this a player would choose a card and put the playables at the front sorted by color as well to tell the person he was passing to go this color.
As far as I'm concerned, the act constitutes cheating-fraud and should be penalized as such.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
The real question though is, how can it be enforced? If one person admits that they are using this technique, couldn't the others just say they were oblivious to it? The key is that it's an unspoken agreement after all.
In other words, if they're not going to mandate that the cards stay in the order they were opened (and really how could you tell anyway), how can you determine the difference between shuffling the pack for the purpose of making your decision, and shuffling to send a message to the next guy?
Correct me if I'm wrong, butI was under the [mistaken] impression that tokens, rules cards, and basic land were removed from the pack after it was opened. As far as how it would work after that: there is no guarantee that you'll have a card of each color in every pack, so it would be easy to miscommunicate.Besides, I really don't see how it would be to your advantage to indicate to your opponent which color you are drafting. Quite frankly, regardless of your color choice, your opponent should pick the strongest cards available to him/her. Finding out your opponent's color can be helpful for adding color-specific evasion/counters, but I sincerely doubt that it will work the way you imagine.
My recommendation: Just don't do it. If you suspect someone else is, call over a judge and get it resolved.
Edit to TriangleMan: Thanks for the correction!
Or any judge for that matter.
Not even a good judge of character.
I could probably be Judge Dread, though. That sounds like an easy job. Guns... rocket boots... yeah...
MTG Rules Adviser/Advisor
Comp Rules, FAQs, and DCI Rules
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
Signaling is when a player notices that because a good card in a particular color still remains in the pack, the players that have already seen the pack must not be playing that color. This is definitely different.
MTG Rules Adviser/Advisor
Comp Rules, FAQs, and DCI Rules
Trust me, it's a big deal. If you fight over a color with someone near you, both of your decks are going to suffer. By cooperating, both of your decks get better.
The person receiving the signal in Pack 1 has the most to gain. They know what colors will be open in Packs 1 and 3. But it's also valuable to the guy sending the signal because he won't get cut off in Pack 2. Everybody wins. This is why I doubt players will call a judge about it, because it's helping them!
Also, this is not the same as traditional "signaling." Usually, signaling does not involve re-ordering packs, it's just guessing what is open based on the relative quality of colors available in the pack. What I'm asking about is a more explicit communication.
EDIT: I should note that shuffling the pack doesn't really do anything, as the signal discussed here is only valid between two people. So even if you hate the practice, any two players sitting next to each other could agree to it and use it, and you couldn't disrupt it.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
It reminded me of a similar situation that was discussed back in 2003 on the Judge listserv. Specifically, an incident involving a couple of players wearing certain colored shirts to indicate the colors they would be drafting. It was nostalgic to revisit that conversation...
Anyhow, the short answer is, something like this could definitely be investigated if the behavior was observed and thought it was suspicious. And, if the head judge truly believed that something that he or she believed constituted cheating took place, then it would be handled accordingly. While it may be difficult to "prove", keep in mind that the Infraction Procedure Guide says the following:
Disqualification can occur without proof of action so long as the Head Judge determines sufficient information exists to believe the tournament’s integrity may have been compromised. It is recommended that the Head Judge’s report to the DCI reflect this fact.
Please don't forget that judges do play the game, and aren't entirely clueless when observing what may be a distinct ordering of the cards in the pack. And don't presume that judges are going to be oblivious to the fact of what information could be communicated; it may not be so precise as to know what exactly has been communicated, just enough to recognize or suspect that something is attempting to be communicated.
Such behavior may go unobserved at FNM or a Prerelease. But at a more competitive event, with judges observing the draft... Yes, you're likely to get some tougher questions.