Hideaway Lands

  • #1
    I was wondering how the Hideaway lands, such as Windbrisk Heights work. If I use its ability to play the card I removed from the game, can I play that card as though it had flash? (Hideaway means "This land comes into play tapped. When it does, look at the top four cards of your library, remove one from the game face down, then put the rest on the bottom of your library." The text on Windbrisk Heights is "W, :symtap:: You may play the removed card without paying its mana cost if you attacked with three or more creatures this turn.")
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  • #2
    Quote from Venser
    I was wondering how the Hideaway lands, such as Windbrisk Heights work. If I use its ability to play the card I removed from the game, can I play that card as though it had flash? (Hideaway means "This land comes into play tapped. When it does, look at the top four cards of your library, remove one from the game face down, then put the rest on the bottom of your library." The text on Windbrisk Heights is "W, :symtap:: You may play the removed card without paying its mana cost if you attacked with three or more creatures this turn.")


    Right from the Lorwyn Primer:

    * The land's last ability allows you to play the removed card as part of the resolution of that ability. Timing restrictions based on the card's type are ignored (for instance, if it's a creature or sorcery). Other play restrictions are not (such as "Play [this card] only during combat").

    * If the removed card is a land, you may play it as a result of the last ability only if it's your turn and you haven't already played a land that turn. This counts as your land play for the turn.


    So you can play the card any time you want...so long as the card doesn't say a specific time to play it in its text, or it is a land.
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  • #3
    Unless there's a Comprehensive Rules update, the Primer seems to contradict the rules here.

    Quote from May 1 Comprehensive Rules »
    212.6b A player may play only one land card during each of his or her own turns. Effects may allow the playing of additional lands; playing an additional land in this way doesn’t prevent a player from taking the normal action of playing a land. Players can’t begin to play a land that an effect prohibits from being played. As a player plays a land, he or she announces whether he or she is using the once-per-turn action of playing a land. If not, he or she specifies which effect is allowing the additional land play. Effects may also allow you to “put” lands into play. This isn’t the same as “playing a land” and doesn’t count as the player’s one land played during his or her turn. [/b]A player may not play a land during another player’s turn, even if an effect would seem to allow the player to do so.[/b]
    Emphasis mine. The bolded part is the only text in the Rules that specifically prohibits you from playing a land; the rest of it details the times you're allowed to play lands. There's no reason you can't play a spell from under Hideaway (normally you can't, since an ability is resolving, but an effect is telling you you can, so you can); by the same token, I don't see any reason for you to be unable to play a second land from Hideaway since there's no specific prohibition from doing so in the Rules.


    Am I missing something, or is the Primer reflecting a change to the Rules?
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  • #4
    Lands are odd.

    The only on your turn limits and 1 per turn limit are put rather hard in stone.

    See the rulings on suspended lands.
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  • #5
    Emphasis mine. The bolded part is the only text in the Rules that specifically prohibits you from playing a land; the rest of it details the times you're allowed to play lands. There's no reason you can't play a spell from under Hideaway (normally you can't, since an ability is resolving, but an effect is telling you you can, so you can); by the same token, I don't see any reason for you to be unable to play a second land from Hideaway since there's no specific prohibition from doing so in the Rules.


    The difference lies in the wording of the timing restriction in the rules. I.E. Sorcery says "You can play me only when the stack is empty, it's one of your mainphases and you have priority" but the lands restriction says "You can't play me during your opponent's turn" .. it's no problem for an effect to override "can [..] only"-rules but the effect can't override "can't"-restrictions

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  • #6
    There are generally two kinds of rules/effects that apply to when you can play certain cards. Those that give you permission to play, and those that prohibit playing. In order to play a card, you have to have permission, and it can't be prohibited.

    Most rules that apply to whether you can play a card simply give permission. None "deny" it: so all you need is one rule or effect that dgives it. That's how the hideaway lands' abilities work: they give you permission.

    But there is one rule that actually prohibits playing a card. That's 212.6b. You are prohibited from playing lands if it isn't your main phase, or if you have used up your allotment of land plays for that turn.

    The primer doesn't contradict anything.
  • #7
    If I'm reading it correctly it doesn't have to be your Main Phase, just your turn. So you could use the ability of the Hideaway land to play a land if it was your Upkeep and you hadn't played a land yet.
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  • #8
    Quote from Hardtrack
    If I'm reading it correctly it doesn't have to be your Main Phase, just your turn. So you could use the ability of the Hideaway land to play a land if it was your Upkeep and you hadn't played a land yet.

    Good point. Yes, that is what it says. I was answering from memory, not looking at the rule.

    More precisely, 212.6a "gives permission," and gives it only in your main phase. 212.6b prohibits playing a land if it isn't your turn, or if it would exceed your allotment for a turn.
  • #9
    I'm sure the primer is just being misleading, and you can only play the land in your turn. It would seem strange to only apply half of the restrictions on playing lands, rather than all or none of them.
  • #10
    The only place where the primer is misleading is where it talks about "Timing restrictions based on the card's type." There are almost none. This surprises most people. What they think are restrictions are the result of no permission being given.

    Let me say that another way. There is no restriction in the rules that says you cannot play a creature spell when it is not your main phase, when there is a spell already on the stack, or when you do not have priority. If you doubt that, go and try to find one. I'll wait.......










    Didn't succeed, did you? The rules give permission to play certain types of cards at certain times, and from certain places:
    212.3a A player may play a creature card from his or her hand during a main phase of his or her turn, when he or she has priority and the stack is empty.
    But since there is no rule giving similar permission at any other time, or for any other cards, you need an effect (like the hideaway lands' abilities) to give you permission at another time and/or for cards in another place. Some will only give permission for cards in other places, and you still have to follow the normal timing permissions. Others will give permission at different times, but you still have to get permission for the place.


    In fact, the only actual "timning restriction" in the rules is:
    212.6b A player may play only one land card during each of his or her own turns. Effects may allow the playing of additional lands
    All of the other rules are merely modifying when you have permission. There are no other restrictions.

    Now, I agree the rules aren't very clear on these points. But it is the correct meaning. The hideaway lands give permission to play the card during resolution. But you still have to follow other restrictions; and the only ones in the rules are that you can only play lands on your own turn, and only if you haven't reached your allotment for that turn.
    Last edited by Condor: 10/1/2007 7:15:31 AM
  • #11
    Ah; I see my confusion now: I missed the word "only" in the first sentence. Now it's clear why the one-per-turn limit can't be broken by effects. Thanks!

    [Sorry in advanced for the double post, but this seemed the right thread to ask this in.]

    I realize the text "Effects may allow the playing of additional lands..." is right there after the first sentence; however, despite that being there, it looks like a blatant contradiction to allow effects like Azusa, Lost but Seeking to work at all, and not allow effects like Hideaway to get around the one-per-turn restriction. To me, it looks as though the prohibition specified by "only" in the first sentence should apply to both. Why doesn't it?

    Double post merged.--Binary
    Last edited by Binary: 10/2/2007 9:49:22 AM
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  • #12
    The best explanation I can give is that Azusa's ability directly contradicts the rule, such that if the rule were enforced over the ability then the ability would never be useful. It's one of the few cases where the "Golden Rule" really applies.
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  • #13
    <Sigh.>
    There is no contradiction. I agree the rule isn't well worded, but this is what it says:[INDENT]212.6b [COLOR="red"]A player may play[/color] [COLOR="green"]only one[/color] [COLOR="red"]land card during each of his or her own turns[/COLOR]. [COLOR="purple"]Effects may allow the playing of additional lands[/COLOR]; [COLOR="sienna"]playing an additional land in this way doesn't prevent a player from taking the normal action of playing a land[/COLOR]. [COLOR="teal"]Players can't begin to play a land that an effect prohibits from being played. [/COLOR][COLOR="darkred"]As a player plays a land, he or she announces whether he or she is using the once-per-turn action of playing a land. If not, he or she specifies which effect is allowing the additional land play. [/COLOR][COLOR="gray"]Effects may also allow you to "put" lands into play. This isn't the same as "playing a land" and doesn't count as the player's one land played during his or her turn.[/COLOR] [COLOR="blue"]A player may not play a land unless it's his or her turn, even if an effect would seem to allow the player to do so.[/COLOR][/INDENT]
    ... and what it means:

    [numlist]To "play a land," a player uses a "land drop."[*][COLOR="Red"]A player may only use a "land drop" on his or her own turn.[/COLOR][*][COLOR="Blue"]A player may not use a "land drop" if it isn't his or her turn.[/COLOR][*][COLOR="Green"]The rules give a player one "land drop" per turn.[/COLOR][*][COLOR="Purple"]Effects may give a player other "land drops."[/COLOR][*][COLOR="Sienna"]These are "in addition to" the one the rules allow.[/COLOR][*][COLOR="Teal"]Other restrictions from effects apply to any "land drop."[/COLOR][*][COLOR="DarkRed"]To keep track of "land drops," the player announces what rule or effect allows the one being used. That rules or effect can't be used again that turn.[/COLOR][*][COLOR="Gray"]"Land drops" apply to playing lands, not putting them into play.[/COLOR][/numlist]

    Effectively, you are confusing the effect "you may play [b]that land card[/b] according to the rules for play lands" with "you may use an additional land drop." Hidaway lands do the first; Azusa does the decond.

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  • #14
    I have a question about Hideaway lands.

    Playing in the Mobile, AL PTQ yesterday, I was playing B/W Tokens and he had a Windbrisk heights in play. I played Cryptic Command choosing the modes of Counter (Bitterblossom) and Return target permanent to its owners hand. Well when I did this, I understood the RFG card to be public and asked to see it. He said it was face down (even though he looked at it on multiple occasions, which I believe to be illigeal) and that it remained face down. I called a judge and after 3 of the zebras deliberated for about 3 minutes, they ruled that he could view the card, but I could not. They also said that I could appeal but the head judge would say the same thing.

    When I asked my TO (who is a judge as well) he said that they card becomes public knowledge when it is removed from the game face down with no way of returning it.

    Someone please clarify....
  • #15
    502.75a Hideaway represents a static ability and a triggered ability. “Hideaway” means “This permanent comes into play tapped” and “When this permanent comes into play, look at the top four cards of your library. Remove one of them from the game face down and put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. The removed card gains ‘Any player who has controlled the permanent that removed this card from the game may look at this card in the removed-from-the-game zone.’”

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  • #16
    18-month necro locked
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