A situation came up the other day in a casual where a card I was using was errated and my opponent didnt know. He was complaining I should have mentioned something. Since it was casual it didnt matter much but what if it happens in a tourney? Its easy enough if the card is an instant and any problems would have been resolved at that point but wat if it was an enchantment or artifact so the change may not be noticed for a while. Am I obliged to mention it before? Or is it their responsibility to know or ask a judge about it when uncertain?
Well you certainly don't want to lie, because that would be bad. Oracle content is considered to be derived information. In Regular REL, derived information is considered free.
Quote from Penalty Guide »
Derived information is information to which all players are permitted, but which your opponents are not obliged to assist you in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived Information includes:
Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current event. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.
Quote from Penalty Guide »
·Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. They may request to do so away from the match.
·Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly, improperly, or falsely.
Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.
At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.
That means that
Quote from Penalty Guide »
Free information is so called because all players are entitled access to this information without contamination or omissions made by their opponent. If you’re ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, you should call a judge and explain the situation.
So those are your instructions, if you are unable or unwilling to provide your opponent the oracle text in Regular REL, you should call a judge.
If you are in Competitive or Professional REL, you are not obliged to assist either.
So represent the card correctly, don't lie about it if your opponent asks, and if there's confusion call a judge.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
A situation came up the other day in a casual where a card I was using was errated and my opponent didnt know. He was complaining I should have mentioned something. Since it was casual it didnt matter much but what if it happens in a tourney? Its easy enough if the card is an instant and any problems would have been resolved at that point but wat if it was an enchantment or artifact so the change may not be noticed for a while. Am I obliged to mention it before? Or is it their responsibility to know or ask a judge about it when uncertain?
You can't know what your opponent knows or doesn't know about the cards you're playing with. If your opponent isn't clear on what your cards do, it's his responsibility to ask you, or even better, a judge.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
So those are your instructions, if you are unable or unwilling to provide your opponent the oracle text in Regular REL, you should call a judge.
If you are in Competitive or Professional REL, you are not obliged to assist either.
Okay, then I'll make the question more tricky (as is my wont), since for my purpose, how this applies to detecting cheaters is of most interest.
Simply put, what counts as requesting free information?
Say I am playing against someone in Regular REL, and he plays or otherwise reveals a card with differently printed text than its Oracle text, and I know this to be the case. He says nothing.
Case 0: I make no explicit request for the card's text; essentially, I go on physically as though I know the card text (since I do).
This is clearly a case where no action is required and nothing is wrong.
Case 1: I ask to know the card's text, I ask that my opponent tell me the card's text, or ask for 'what it says' or similar.
This is the clear case where action is required in Regular REL and something is wrong if my opponent misrepresents the text.
Case 2: I ask to "see" the card explicitly, but do not explicitly ask "for the card's text/abilities" nor perform any other speech act which semantically includes a term for knowledge of the card's text.
Case 3: I move about conspicuously in my seat so as to position myself to read the card's text, craning my head, standing and turning sideways, or whatever the fitting motion may be.
In case 2 or case 3, has my opponent done something improper if he does not present that the Oracle text is not as shown on the card? That is, is there cause for me to call a judge?
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Okay, then I'll make the question more tricky (as is my wont), since for my purpose, how this applies to detecting cheaters is of most interest.
Simply put, what counts as requesting free information?
Say I am playing against someone in Regular REL, and he plays or otherwise reveals a card with differently printed text than its Oracle text, and I know this to be the case. He says nothing.
Case 0: I make no explicit request for the card's text; essentially, I go on physically as though I know the card text (since I do).
This is clearly a case where no action is required and nothing is wrong.
Case 1: I ask to know the card's text, I ask that my opponent tell me the card's text, or ask for 'what it says' or similar.
This is the clear case where action is required in Regular REL and something is wrong if my opponent misrepresents the text.
Case 2: I ask to "see" the card explicitly, but do not explicitly ask "for the card's text/abilities" nor perform any other speech act which semantically includes a term for knowledge of the card's text.
Case 3: I move about conspicuously in my seat so as to position myself to read the card's text, craning my head, standing and turning sideways, or whatever the fitting motion may be.
In case 2 or case 3, has my opponent done something improper if he does not present that the Oracle text is not as shown on the card? That is, is there cause for me to call a judge?
I don't think that any 4 of those cases constitutes fraud on the part of your opponent at face value. Only case 1 is actually misrepresentation on the part of your opponent because that's the only time he ever actually spoke. Even then, it's only Cheating - Fraud if the judge believes that the player was aware of the difference in text and intentionally said the wrong thing.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
Just to point out, this also applies to foreign-language cards. I've had that situation come up a few times. Also, if someone asks what a card does, try to be as concise as possible to avoid confusion and later judge calls...
I've had issues before where someone would say "oh, it does something like <insert card here>" but fail to explain the difference. Would that count as misrepresentation in the eyes of the rules?
I don't think that any 4 of those cases constitutes fraud on the part of your opponent at face value. Only case 1 is actually misrepresentation on the part of your opponent because that's the only time he ever actually spoke. Even then, it's only Cheating - Fraud if the judge believes that the player was aware of the difference in text and intentionally said the wrong thing.
...
I have a hard time believing this. For one, it seems you misread me. That case 1 is the problematic one is what I said.
The question is, if I do things to put me in case 2 or case 3, what must my opponent do? That is, what is he constrained to do? what must he say? what can't he say?
Have I not "requested" the information the same as in case 1?
Also, back to case 1, I'm quite sure Fraud isn't the only thing that could become the issue. I would think that if the opponent replies that the text is [what's printed], then he is at least making an error according to the document quoted by triangleman you. My interest is not in what the infraction would be, but rather if I - knowing at least that the card is not as printed, possibly as much as the Oracle text perfectly, and either way that the opponent is wrong - should call a judge.
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Simply put, what counts as requesting free information?
I'm not sure precisely what you're asking for, but I don't think there's anything really "special" about this. If you ask a question of your opponent, and what you are asking about is defined as "free information" in the Penalty Guide (Section 50), then it's a request for "free information". Your opponent has the option to answer completely and honestly, or he can choose to call a judge and can explain to the judge what is going on.
Admitedly, not everyone may understand what is "free information", and how at Regular REL what is "derived information" is considered "free information". So, it's possible that even if you ask the question of your opponent, he might not know the difference, and might not answer the question "completely and honestly". That's where a judge has to investigate and find out what's going on. So, the outcome may vary and why these kind of questions are difficult to answer in anything more than a general sense. Note: It's also why individuals not super familiar with DCI policy should be extremely careful in answering such questions.
Case 1: I ask to know the card's text, I ask that my opponent tell me the card's text, or ask for 'what it says' or similar.
This is the clear case where action is required in Regular REL and something is wrong if my opponent misrepresents the text.
According to the Penalty Guide, yes. A card's Oracle text is normally considered "derived information" and at Regular REL, it's considered "free information". Your opponent can either answer honestly and completely, or he can call a judge and ask the judge to provide the Oracle text instead.
If your opponent makes an honest effort to answer the question to the best of his ability and as completely as possible, then he's at least doing what he should be doing. That's what the Penalty Guide says for him to do. If he happens to be wrong about what the card does, then it's an unintentional violation of the Communication Policy. But if he's making a good faith effort (in the judge's mind), then he's doing what he should be doing.
Case 2: I ask to "see" the card explicitly, but do not explicitly ask "for the card's text/abilities" nor perform any other speech act which semantically includes a term for knowledge of the card's text.
You asked to see the card. I don't see how this could be interpreted to mean anything more or less than that. You could have certainly asked for the Oracle text, or you could have asked your opponent what the card does. But you didn't do either of those things, and your opponent is under no obligation to provide information that you didn't ask for.
Nothing in that section of the Penalty Guide leads me to believe a player should simply start providing information. Especially when the Penalty Guide says: "Players are under no obligation to assist their opponents in playing the game." Your opponent may need to answer your questions, but doesn't need to go further. It may be sporting to volunteer information, but it isn't unsporting to not volunteer information. And it certainly isn't a violation of any policy to not volunteer information.
Case 3: I move about conspicuously in my seat so as to position myself to read the card's text, craning my head, standing and turning sideways, or whatever the fitting motion may be.
And? What question have you actually asked your opponent that he needs to answer? Because it seems to me that you haven't asked him anything about the card other than to see it. At best, he could ask "Are you alright?" or "Do you need to know what the card does?"
If you have a question for your opponent, then ask it. I don't expect a player to somehow "read" body language or take statements at any more than their face value, and nothing in the Penalty Guide suggests to me than a player needs to "interpret" what his or her opponent meant.
I suppose for me it's also a question of how will I know if there is Oracle text or not. I guess the answer is I wont and it's just a matter of playing more.
I suppose for me it's also a question of how will I know if there is Oracle text or not. I guess the answer is I wont and it's just a matter of playing more.
The best advice I think you can have is that you should use Gatherer and check on the wording of any cards that you're going to play with, or expect to play against:
That means that
So those are your instructions, if you are unable or unwilling to provide your opponent the oracle text in Regular REL, you should call a judge.
If you are in Competitive or Professional REL, you are not obliged to assist either.
So represent the card correctly, don't lie about it if your opponent asks, and if there's confusion call a judge.
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Comp Rules, FAQs, and DCI Rules
You can't know what your opponent knows or doesn't know about the cards you're playing with. If your opponent isn't clear on what your cards do, it's his responsibility to ask you, or even better, a judge.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Okay, then I'll make the question more tricky (as is my wont), since for my purpose, how this applies to detecting cheaters is of most interest.
Simply put, what counts as requesting free information?
Say I am playing against someone in Regular REL, and he plays or otherwise reveals a card with differently printed text than its Oracle text, and I know this to be the case. He says nothing.
Case 0: I make no explicit request for the card's text; essentially, I go on physically as though I know the card text (since I do).
This is clearly a case where no action is required and nothing is wrong.
Case 1: I ask to know the card's text, I ask that my opponent tell me the card's text, or ask for 'what it says' or similar.
This is the clear case where action is required in Regular REL and something is wrong if my opponent misrepresents the text.
Case 2: I ask to "see" the card explicitly, but do not explicitly ask "for the card's text/abilities" nor perform any other speech act which semantically includes a term for knowledge of the card's text.
Case 3: I move about conspicuously in my seat so as to position myself to read the card's text, craning my head, standing and turning sideways, or whatever the fitting motion may be.
In case 2 or case 3, has my opponent done something improper if he does not present that the Oracle text is not as shown on the card? That is, is there cause for me to call a judge?
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I've had issues before where someone would say "oh, it does something like <insert card here>" but fail to explain the difference. Would that count as misrepresentation in the eyes of the rules?
...
I have a hard time believing this. For one, it seems you misread me. That case 1 is the problematic one is what I said.
The question is, if I do things to put me in case 2 or case 3, what must my opponent do? That is, what is he constrained to do? what must he say? what can't he say?
Have I not "requested" the information the same as in case 1?
Also, back to case 1, I'm quite sure Fraud isn't the only thing that could become the issue. I would think that if the opponent replies that the text is [what's printed], then he is at least making an error according to the document quoted by
trianglemanyou. My interest is not in what the infraction would be, but rather if I - knowing at least that the card is not as printed, possibly as much as the Oracle text perfectly, and either way that the opponent is wrong - should call a judge.Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I'm not sure precisely what you're asking for, but I don't think there's anything really "special" about this. If you ask a question of your opponent, and what you are asking about is defined as "free information" in the Penalty Guide (Section 50), then it's a request for "free information". Your opponent has the option to answer completely and honestly, or he can choose to call a judge and can explain to the judge what is going on.
Admitedly, not everyone may understand what is "free information", and how at Regular REL what is "derived information" is considered "free information". So, it's possible that even if you ask the question of your opponent, he might not know the difference, and might not answer the question "completely and honestly". That's where a judge has to investigate and find out what's going on. So, the outcome may vary and why these kind of questions are difficult to answer in anything more than a general sense. Note: It's also why individuals not super familiar with DCI policy should be extremely careful in answering such questions.
According to the Penalty Guide, yes. A card's Oracle text is normally considered "derived information" and at Regular REL, it's considered "free information". Your opponent can either answer honestly and completely, or he can call a judge and ask the judge to provide the Oracle text instead.
If your opponent makes an honest effort to answer the question to the best of his ability and as completely as possible, then he's at least doing what he should be doing. That's what the Penalty Guide says for him to do. If he happens to be wrong about what the card does, then it's an unintentional violation of the Communication Policy. But if he's making a good faith effort (in the judge's mind), then he's doing what he should be doing.
You asked to see the card. I don't see how this could be interpreted to mean anything more or less than that. You could have certainly asked for the Oracle text, or you could have asked your opponent what the card does. But you didn't do either of those things, and your opponent is under no obligation to provide information that you didn't ask for.
Nothing in that section of the Penalty Guide leads me to believe a player should simply start providing information. Especially when the Penalty Guide says: "Players are under no obligation to assist their opponents in playing the game." Your opponent may need to answer your questions, but doesn't need to go further. It may be sporting to volunteer information, but it isn't unsporting to not volunteer information. And it certainly isn't a violation of any policy to not volunteer information.
And? What question have you actually asked your opponent that he needs to answer? Because it seems to me that you haven't asked him anything about the card other than to see it. At best, he could ask "Are you alright?" or "Do you need to know what the card does?"
If you have a question for your opponent, then ask it. I don't expect a player to somehow "read" body language or take statements at any more than their face value, and nothing in the Penalty Guide suggests to me than a player needs to "interpret" what his or her opponent meant.
I suppose for me it's also a question of how will I know if there is Oracle text or not. I guess the answer is I wont and it's just a matter of playing more.
The best advice I think you can have is that you should use Gatherer and check on the wording of any cards that you're going to play with, or expect to play against:
http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx
At a minimum, you can get an idea of some of what is out there. Especially the cards that you'll be using in your own deck.
That being said, if you ever have a question about what a card does, please call a judge. We're there to help you.