Hey all, I've been running into the follow questions lately and I haven't been able to say for certain if I'm correct or not.
Question 1) I have a trinisphere (hooray) in play. If the other player plays a spell without paying its cost (as part of something like suspend, or putting the spell into play with Isochron Sceptre), does trinisphere trigger to make them pay the three. My line of thinking is, free is less than three, therefore, pay 3. Not sure if that's correct, so I came to you!
Question 2) I play a recurring nightmare with my opponent having a Relic of progenitus in play at the same time. I successfully cast the nightmare, but he relics my whole yard in response. Do I still have priority and can use the recurring nightmare to sac and get a creature, since I still have priority after I play it, or can he still respond to it? I understand that he can respond to the playing of recurring nightmare, and I'm pretty sure I can't do diddly. But say I play it, sac, then he responds, what happens then?
Question 3) This has to deal with Blood Moon. Does blood moon turn the Mirrodin artifact lands into just mountains, or does the artifact land still keep staying an artifact, but now produces red mana as a mountain? As well, would price of progress count nonbasics turned into mountains when it is dealing its damage?
Sorry about the big questions, but I figure that I might as well get them over with in one shot rather than three threads. Thanks for the help!
Cheers,
MAtt
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1. Free is indeed less than 3. Trinisphere always applies last, and says "Did you pay at least 3 mana for this? If not, then you must!" You're right.
2. You're pretty much in a lose-lose situation. If he pops the Relic in response to you playing the Recurring Nightmare, then your graveyard is gone before RN comes into play. If he pops the Relic in response to you playing RN's ability, then your graveyard is gone and then RN's ability is countered (and it'll be back in your hand.) If you pass priority to him, and he pops Relic, then you can't play RN's ability in response, because the stack isn't empty.
3. Changing a land's type (Mountain, Locus, Urza's etc) does not change its supertype (Basic, Legendary, World etc.) or its other card types (artifact etc.) A Blood Moon won't turn an artifact land into artifiction, and it won't turn a nonbasic land into a basic one.
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I'm pretty certain the suspend ability says "When the last time counter is removed, if this is removed from the game, you must play it if able" (or something to that effect). Since Trinisphere increases the cost of the otherwise free spell, it is possible for you to not be able to play the spell. Not only that, but even if you are sitting with an abundance of mana during your upkeep (Thran Turbine FTW!), the game can't really tell whether you are able to pay the additional cost or not, and therefore it can't force you to take an action you might not legally be able to make.
The upshot of all this is, if you have something like Phthisis about to resolve and the only creature on the board is your BFM, you can thank your lucky stars that Trinisphere is around to keep that terrible sickness removed from the game forever.
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I'm pretty certain the suspend ability says "When the last time counter is removed, if this is removed from the game, you must play it if able" (or something to that effect). Since Trinisphere increases the cost of the otherwise free spell, it is possible for you to not be able to play the spell. Not only that, but even if you are sitting with an abundance of mana during your upkeep (Thran Turbine FTW!), the game can't really tell whether you are able to pay the additional cost or not, and therefore it can't force you to take an action you might not legally be able to make.
Oh no, it can tell if you can pay it, with resources you already have. The answer of if mana in your pool can pay a given cost is definite, given the mana in your pool. An algorithm could be written to produce the answer.
What the game won't do is tell if your lands could generate that mana. It's odd, since this is still algorithmically solvable (although way more time complex), but that's the rules.
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Not only that, but even if you are sitting with an abundance of mana during your upkeep (Thran Turbine FTW!), the game can't really tell whether you are able to pay the additional cost or not, and therefore it can't force you to take an action you might not legally be able to make.
I can't tell what you're trying to say here, but if you're saying you don't have to pay even if the mana is already in your pool, then you're wrong. You don't have to tap lands to make yourself able, but if there is enough mana in your mana pool, you have to spend it. (Though in the case of the Turbine, 1: you can't spend that mana on spells, 2: adding the mana is optional, and 3: since you control both triggers, you could stack the suspend trigger above the Turbine's anyway.)
But, they can still get the spell through when the last counter is removed if they pay the three? Man, this makes trinisphere way more awesome than I thought...
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But, they can still get the spell through when the last counter is removed if they pay the three?
Yes, in order to play the spell, they would have to pay 3. Suspend gives the spell an alternative cost of paying no mana, and since that's less than 3, Trinisphere's ability applies and raises the total cost to 3.
Edit: The "If you have 3 in your pool, you would have to pay it and play the spell." is a nuance of the rules involving the non-optional nature of playing the suspended card. The wording of the triggered ability for suspend (502.59a) doesn't give the you any option of playing the card, and if you have the resources available to play it, you have to. The game only evaluates the resoures you actually have (i.e., mana actually in your mana pool) not the resources you could have (i.e., tapping lands for mana). That's really something that just doesn't come up often, and is probably a hint of "corner case-itis".
I wasn't aware that there was a difference between being forced to spend resources you already have (mana that's actually in your pool) and being forced to spend resources you could potentially have (mana that could be put into your pool). I was thinking of the latter of these two in my example, and it's a good thing a number of people brought up the former.
Also, I wasn't aware when I was posting last night just how poor a reference Thran Turbine was. Sorry for any confusion this card may have caused here. Braid of Fire would have been a much better example. (And even then, useless_kodama is right in that you can stack the triggers so you wouldn't have the mana to pay anyway.)
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My only question regard #1 is that isochron says to not pay the mana cost of the imprinted spell. It seems like triniphere modifies the mana cost of the spell, therefore would be ignored by isochron's ability.
Am I wrong in thinking this?
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Trinisphere does nothing to the mana cost of a spell (the mana cost of a spell is whatever is printed in the upper right hand corner of the card). Trinisphere looks at what you're paying for the spell, and if it's less than 3, it makes you pay at least 3. Since you're playing the spell from the Scepter, the Trinisphere will affect it and you'll have to pay 3 to play the copt.
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Question 1) I have a trinisphere (hooray) in play. If the other player plays a spell without paying its cost (as part of something like suspend, or putting the spell into play with Isochron Sceptre), does trinisphere trigger to make them pay the three. My line of thinking is, free is less than three, therefore, pay 3. Not sure if that's correct, so I came to you!
Question 2) I play a recurring nightmare with my opponent having a Relic of progenitus in play at the same time. I successfully cast the nightmare, but he relics my whole yard in response. Do I still have priority and can use the recurring nightmare to sac and get a creature, since I still have priority after I play it, or can he still respond to it? I understand that he can respond to the playing of recurring nightmare, and I'm pretty sure I can't do diddly. But say I play it, sac, then he responds, what happens then?
Question 3) This has to deal with Blood Moon. Does blood moon turn the Mirrodin artifact lands into just mountains, or does the artifact land still keep staying an artifact, but now produces red mana as a mountain? As well, would price of progress count nonbasics turned into mountains when it is dealing its damage?
Sorry about the big questions, but I figure that I might as well get them over with in one shot rather than three threads. Thanks for the help!
Cheers,
MAtt
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2. You're pretty much in a lose-lose situation. If he pops the Relic in response to you playing the Recurring Nightmare, then your graveyard is gone before RN comes into play. If he pops the Relic in response to you playing RN's ability, then your graveyard is gone and then RN's ability is countered (and it'll be back in your hand.) If you pass priority to him, and he pops Relic, then you can't play RN's ability in response, because the stack isn't empty.
3. Changing a land's type (Mountain, Locus, Urza's etc) does not change its supertype (Basic, Legendary, World etc.) or its other card types (artifact etc.) A Blood Moon won't turn an artifact land into artifiction, and it won't turn a nonbasic land into a basic one.
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I'm pretty certain the suspend ability says "When the last time counter is removed, if this is removed from the game, you must play it if able" (or something to that effect). Since Trinisphere increases the cost of the otherwise free spell, it is possible for you to not be able to play the spell. Not only that, but even if you are sitting with an abundance of mana during your upkeep (Thran Turbine FTW!), the game can't really tell whether you are able to pay the additional cost or not, and therefore it can't force you to take an action you might not legally be able to make.
The upshot of all this is, if you have something like Phthisis about to resolve and the only creature on the board is your BFM, you can thank your lucky stars that Trinisphere is around to keep that terrible sickness removed from the game forever.
--Ertai, wizard adept
Oh no, it can tell if you can pay it, with resources you already have. The answer of if mana in your pool can pay a given cost is definite, given the mana in your pool. An algorithm could be written to produce the answer.
What the game won't do is tell if your lands could generate that mana. It's odd, since this is still algorithmically solvable (although way more time complex), but that's the rules.
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Yes, in order to play the spell, they would have to pay 3. Suspend gives the spell an alternative cost of paying no mana, and since that's less than 3, Trinisphere's ability applies and raises the total cost to 3.
Edit: The "If you have 3 in your pool, you would have to pay it and play the spell." is a nuance of the rules involving the non-optional nature of playing the suspended card. The wording of the triggered ability for suspend (502.59a) doesn't give the you any option of playing the card, and if you have the resources available to play it, you have to. The game only evaluates the resoures you actually have (i.e., mana actually in your mana pool) not the resources you could have (i.e., tapping lands for mana). That's really something that just doesn't come up often, and is probably a hint of "corner case-itis".
Also, I wasn't aware when I was posting last night just how poor a reference Thran Turbine was. Sorry for any confusion this card may have caused here. Braid of Fire would have been a much better example. (And even then, useless_kodama is right in that you can stack the triggers so you wouldn't have the mana to pay anyway.)
--Ertai, wizard adept
Am I wrong in thinking this?
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Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Play at the following shops:
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Sci-Fi Genre (Durham, NC)
All Fun and Games (Apex, NC)