Ok, so I'm playing in a tournament tonight and I cast Mistbind Clique it resolves championing a faerie and my opponent cast Bant Charm putting the clique on the bottom of my library. He then says he doesn't have to tap all of his lands from the cliques ability. I have never heard of this being possible, is it?
Not as you describe, but your opponent can accomplish the same thing.
If your opponent waits until after you champion a Faerie, the Mistbind's ability will already have triggered and his lands will be tapped regardless.
However, if your opponent responds to the champion trigger by playing the Charm, (and this is likely what he meant to do) the Clique will be put on the bottom of your library before it can champion anything and thus before its ability triggers. When the champion trigger then resolves, you can remove a Faerie if you wish, but it won't accomplish anything, because the Clique is no longer around to trigger off of that and tap his lands. All you'd do is remove one of your own Faeries to no good end.
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Level 2 Magic Judge
Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist. Knowledge knows no bounds.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
What he was doing is waiting until the faerie was championed then removing it. And saying it has to be in play for the tap all lands trigger to resolve.
Then he's wrong. It only has to be in play for the ability to trigger. After it triggers, nothing he can do to the Clique will have any effect whatsoever on the ability.
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Level 2 Magic Judge
Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist. Knowledge knows no bounds.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
One will probably be by sooner or later to confirm, but in case it's time-sensitive, until then, I'll just point out my credentials as noted here, as the author of the Rules FAQ on the Wizards boards, and as a Rules Advisor.
(I really need to get at least one judge level so I can just say "Yes, I am a judge" to these things. :p)
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Level 2 Magic Judge
Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist. Knowledge knows no bounds.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
What he was doing is waiting until the faerie was championed then removing it. And saying it has to be in play for the tap all lands trigger to resolve.
Okay, well before this gets into an argument of who did what when, let me confirm that GrifterMage is correct. It also seems that icpTJ knows that if you remove the Clique before the Champion trigger resolves, the "tap all lands" ability will not trigger. If you remove the Clique after the Champion trigger resolves (and a Faerie is Championed), then the "tap all lands" ability is already on the stack and will resolve regardless of the Clique's final location.
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Big miscommunication. The way it sounded like you said it was that a faerie was championed and then you were putting the clique on the bottom of my library. Which I would have been right on.
But if I would have know that he was doing it when the clique came into play, but before it championed something then there would have been no argument.
I don't believe it actually affected the outcome of anything in those games it came up in which is good.
Sorry for the argument T.J., apparently we were both right but I just didn't know what was going on.
"Chalk this one up to miscommunication, I guess." NO icptj you are being too nice... joshmilliken2001 didn't know the rules and hated to say that you were right or he just dint know the rules.When there is a question in our shop Icptj is the one called apon to answer questions not the other supposed rules advisors.
Not being rude just being real honest!!!
The funny thing is a year ago this would have been settled with "Wow ...Really ICPTJ...i believe you!!" its ok some people will always hate on the game of others!!!:D:D:D
And also Josh T.J explained it to you and what he was doing "I clearly Bant Charmed before the clique's champion trigger resolved. I very explicit about what I was doing."
I am slow with alot of things and cant follow alot of directions but i heard his case and i understood and heck Jaron even understood!!!Oh well..... dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!!!!nuff said!!!!
it's really easy for this kind of thing to happen. Next time, guys, from a Level 1 Judge, I'd ask the player accused of the misplay what his exact words were. I then tell him, to prevent any further arguments, that he must say "In response to the Champion trigger resolving, I..." if he does not say that, I instruct the player to tap all of his lands, in this specific case.
I play quite a bit of Legacy, and it's because of that format that I have an in-depth understanding of the rules. A lot of it comes down to exact timing issues, which is why I tell everyone to say exactly when they're doing stuff, and don't leave anything for interpretation, at all...
GP: Philly 3 years ago, I got my judge certification. Sat there at a Solidarity v. Solidarity matchup, turn 5 of extra turns, 55 minutes on the last turn, storm counts on Brain Freeze @ 15, and 22 for Player A and 19 for Player B. Player A lost due to a miscommunication. He stated his intent wrong, and me and the head judge of the side event held him to his words, although it was a lot more in depth than that.
"Chalk this one up to miscommunication, I guess." NO icptj you are being too nice... joshmilliken2001 didn't know the rules and hated to say that you were right or he just dint know the rules.When there is a question in our shop Icptj is the one called apon to answer questions not the other supposed rules advisors.
Not being rude just being real honest!!!
The funny thing is a year ago this would have been settled with "Wow ...Really ICPTJ...i believe you!!" its ok some people will always hate on the game of others!!!:D:D:D
And also Josh T.J explained it to you and what he was doing "I clearly Bant Charmed before the clique's champion trigger resolved. I very explicit about what I was doing."
I am slow with alot of things and cant follow alot of directions but i heard his case and i understood and heck Jaron even understood!!!Oh well..... dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!!!!nuff said!!!!
Yeah, it's real cute to sit back and call me dumb and say I don't know the rules. If you're going to flame me at least tell me who you are.
It was a misunderstanding, and I do know the rules. I just did not know he was doing it before the clique championed a faerie. It didn't make any sense to me telling me the tap all lands trigger didn't happen the way I thought the play was being done.
There's no point in making any further fuss over this, as I have apologized to T.J. and it was just a miscommunication whether anyone else believes me or not.
How the *bleep* did you people figure this sort of crap was okay to do here? Argue in real life. Keep the forum civil. Infractions for all three of you and locky lock.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
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If your opponent waits until after you champion a Faerie, the Mistbind's ability will already have triggered and his lands will be tapped regardless.
However, if your opponent responds to the champion trigger by playing the Charm, (and this is likely what he meant to do) the Clique will be put on the bottom of your library before it can champion anything and thus before its ability triggers. When the champion trigger then resolves, you can remove a Faerie if you wish, but it won't accomplish anything, because the Clique is no longer around to trigger off of that and tap his lands. All you'd do is remove one of your own Faeries to no good end.
Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
Knowledge knows no bounds.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
Knowledge knows no bounds.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
(I really need to get at least one judge level so I can just say "Yes, I am a judge" to these things. :p)
Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
Knowledge knows no bounds.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
All lies. Listen next time, please.
Ex-Magic Rules Advisor10/3/13 Once again I join the elite ranks of
Magic Rules Advisors...
I sell things on Ebay rarely. Look at them.
Do you know any judges who always impress you with their work ethic, knowledge, or attitude? Nominate them to be the next Judge of the Week!
I do know this, and that is exactly what I did.
Chalk this one up to miscommunication, I guess.
Ex-Magic Rules Advisor10/3/13 Once again I join the elite ranks of
Magic Rules Advisors...
I sell things on Ebay rarely. Look at them.
Big miscommunication. The way it sounded like you said it was that a faerie was championed and then you were putting the clique on the bottom of my library. Which I would have been right on.
But if I would have know that he was doing it when the clique came into play, but before it championed something then there would have been no argument.
I don't believe it actually affected the outcome of anything in those games it came up in which is good.
Sorry for the argument T.J., apparently we were both right but I just didn't know what was going on.
Not being rude just being real honest!!!
The funny thing is a year ago this would have been settled with "Wow ...Really ICPTJ...i believe you!!" its ok some people will always hate on the game of others!!!:D:D:D
And also Josh T.J explained it to you and what he was doing "I clearly Bant Charmed before the clique's champion trigger resolved. I very explicit about what I was doing."
I am slow with alot of things and cant follow alot of directions but i heard his case and i understood and heck Jaron even understood!!!Oh well..... dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!!!!nuff said!!!!
I play quite a bit of Legacy, and it's because of that format that I have an in-depth understanding of the rules. A lot of it comes down to exact timing issues, which is why I tell everyone to say exactly when they're doing stuff, and don't leave anything for interpretation, at all...
GP: Philly 3 years ago, I got my judge certification. Sat there at a Solidarity v. Solidarity matchup, turn 5 of extra turns, 55 minutes on the last turn, storm counts on Brain Freeze @ 15, and 22 for Player A and 19 for Player B. Player A lost due to a miscommunication. He stated his intent wrong, and me and the head judge of the side event held him to his words, although it was a lot more in depth than that.
Next time, be careful what you say...
Yeah, it's real cute to sit back and call me dumb and say I don't know the rules. If you're going to flame me at least tell me who you are.
It was a misunderstanding, and I do know the rules. I just did not know he was doing it before the clique championed a faerie. It didn't make any sense to me telling me the tap all lands trigger didn't happen the way I thought the play was being done.
There's no point in making any further fuss over this, as I have apologized to T.J. and it was just a miscommunication whether anyone else believes me or not.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.