Indestructible?

  • #1
    I'm wondering if I manage to get Elspeth, Knight-Errant to make everything indestructible and play a Wrath of God on the next turn, what happens? I want to say my creatures will be all right but for some reason I don't think that's right.

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  • #2
    Indestructable simply means "Destroy" effects do not affect it...And since all your creatures are indestructable, wrath of god's "Destroy" efect does not affect them...Only the non-indestructable ones. Being indestructable does NOT save them from something like Infest, however.
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  • #3
    Indestructable means destroy effects do not affect the permanent with indestructable. This means damage will not kill them either. However, -x/-x effects will, as well as -1/-1 counters.
  • #4
    indestructibility doesnt prevent damage though right? like if you have a 3/3 indestructible and they puncture blast it, it will still die right?
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  • #5
    Quote from Surgeslayer
    indestructibility doesnt prevent damage though right? like if you have a 3/3 indestructible and they puncture blast it, it will still die right?



    It will still die, but only beacuse the dmg was wither.

    any normal dmg, such as incinerate would not kill a 3/3 indestuctable
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  • #6
    But it WILL still damage the creature. It will have three damage that doesn't affect it at all. This is sometimes relevant. I don't want to look it up but I believe Indestructable is worded "Destroy effects and lethal damage don't destroy it."

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  • #7
    Quote from Surgeslayer
    indestructibility doesnt prevent damage though right? like if you have a 3/3 indestructible and they puncture blast it, it will still die right?


    Damage is still dealt to indestructible creatures, it just doesn't cause them to be destroyed. Wither deals its damage as -1/-1 counters, so an indestructible creature can die from wither damage due to having 0 or less toughness, which is different from dying due to taking lethal non-wither damage.

    Note that Stuffy Doll's functionality is based entirely on the concept of an indestructible creature taking damage.

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  • #8
    you can also remove them from the game to get rid of them
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  • #9
    Does Elspeth, Knight-Errant's ultimate ability put a time stamp on the cards that are already in play? ie, I play the ultimate ability this turn. On my next turn, i play a creature....is that creature indestructible?
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  • #10
    Yes. "For the rest of the game" means exactly that. It's not granting an ability to the permanents, so it affects any permanent with the listed type(s) even if they're not in play at the time.

    Which is all non-planeswalker permanents you'll control for the rest of the game, unless you start doing weird stuff with Neurok Transmuter and March of the Machines.
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  • #11
    that's why when you get to 8 loyalty you use it >.>; because it's the bomb. it even makes tokens stronger. i hear alot of people comparing to stigma lasher, because it allows you to be your own effect rather than the effect being caused by something else.
    Last edited by WalkingPlanes: 10/13/2008 11:41:17 PM
  • #12
    thats is the nuts then...its better than i thought it was. cheers.
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  • #13
    I use Elspeth in my token deck. Cause hey, who doesn't want 80 1/1 saps who are indestructible? but unfortunately, indestructible does not equal shroud.....It just means they can't die from combat damage. The official ruling is.....
    Indestructible

    If a permanent is indestructible, rules and effects can't destroy it. Such permanents are not destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the lethal-damage state-based effect (see rule 420.5c). Rules or effects may cause an indestructible permanent to be sacrificed, put into a graveyard, or removed from the game.



    rule 420.5c states that a creature with lethal damage, but 0 toughness is destroyed.
  • #14
    Quote from iamspartacus22
    It just means they can't die from combat damage.


    No, it means they can't die from any destroy effect, including lethal damage (regardless of whether it's combat damage or not.)

    Quote from iamspartacus22

    rule 420.5c states that a creature with lethal damage, but 0 toughness is destroyed.


    If you're going to quote a rule, please quote it correctly.

    Quote from CompRules »

    420.5c A creature with lethal damage, but greater than 0 toughness, is destroyed. Lethal damage is an amount of damage greater than or equal to a creature's toughness. Regeneration can replace this event.


    The words "greater than" are very important here, as the state-based effect that takes care of 0-toughness creatures is not destruction.
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  • #15
    Quick question: My opponent attacks with a darksteel colossus and I snakeform it and block with a 2/2. Snakeform gets rid of ALL the text on the colossus correct? Including the 'indestructible' ? So it would die? Then, what about the part when it hits the graveyard, would that ability trigger since it's already in a graveyard (since, it does say when it would be put into a graveyard...) but it would already be there when the ability text came back into effect? I'm a bit confused... thanks!
  • #16
    Quote from Sirfrummel
    Quick question: My opponent attacks with a darksteel colossus and I snakeform it and block with a 2/2. Snakeform gets rid of ALL the text on the colossus correct? Including the 'indestructible' ? So it would die? Then, what about the part when it hits the graveyard, would that ability trigger since it's already in a graveyard (since, it does say when it would be put into a graveyard...) but it would already be there when the ability text came back into effect? I'm a bit confused... thanks!


    The Darksteel colossus will indeed die and go to the graveyard to stay. Because as it goes to the graveyard, it's still a snake with no abilities.
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  • #17
    Binary
    Which is all non-planeswalker permanents you'll control for the rest of the game, unless you start doing weird stuff with Neurok Transmuter and March of the Machines.



    Why would you say that when neither of those cards would stop the indestruciblity granted from Elspeth from working on permanents you control.They'ed be either an artifact,artifact creature or creature.Meaning they'ed always have a type nessesary to be indestructible.
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  • #18
    Darksteel Collosus will as far as i know stay indestructible as it is, what I think it´s called, a card defining ability. Either something is indestructible or it isn´t.
    But I can´t give you exact rules so I leave this to our Gurus ^^

    EDIT:
    Is Hix360 really right? Will Collosus die?!? Never heard of that before?

    Update:
    Ok he is indeed right, but only because Darksteel Collosus reads: ~ is indestructible.
    If Darksteel Collosus would plainly have indestructible on it like for example the token generated by Dark Depths it wouldn´t lose indestructible.
    Last edited by drakelordphil: 10/15/2008 3:52:04 AM
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  • #19
    Quote from Jiyor
    Why would you say that when neither of those cards would stop the indestruciblity granted from Elspeth from working on permanents you control.They'ed be either an artifact,artifact creature or creature.Meaning they'ed always have a type nessesary to be indestructible.
    If the Neurok Transmuter's second ability resolves, the targets stops being an artifact. If it was an artifact creature by virtue of some animation effect such as that from March of the Machines, it will also stop being a creature, since the March's animation effect only animates noncreature artifacts, and the Transmuter removes artifact-ness.

    The Transmuter's effect applies first (even though the March's effect has the earlier timestamp) because the March's effect is dependent on effects that make objects into, or stops them being, artifacts. You always apply dependent effects after the effects they depend on, no matter what order the timestamps give the effects.

    If it's not one of the specified permanent types, it's not indestructible.
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  • #21
    Quote from Merestil Haye
    If the Neurok Transmuter's second ability resolves, the targets stops being an artifact. If it was an artifact creature by virtue of some animation effect such as that from March of the Machines, it will also stop being a creature, since the March's animation effect only animates noncreature artifacts, and the Transmuter removes artifact-ness.

    The Transmuter's effect applies first (even though the March's effect has the earlier timestamp) because the March's effect is dependent on effects that make objects into, or stops them being, artifacts. You always apply dependent effects after the effects they depend on, no matter what order the timestamps give the effects.

    If it's not one of the specified permanent types, it's not indestructible.


    Effect:
    For the rest of the game, artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands you control are indestructible.

    There is no need to explain scenarios in which permanents loose all their type just to say " and permanent is no longer artifact or creature or enchantment or land so it will no longer be indestructible " Smile

    It is very clear what the effect is affecting. Smile
  • #22
    Quote from drakelordphil

    If Darksteel Collosus would plainly have indestructible on it like for example the token generated by Dark Depths it wouldn´t lose indestructible.


    There is no way for a permanent to have plainly "Indestructible" on it, since Indestructible is not a keyword. And even if that were a keyword ability, ability removal would still remove it.

    The Marit Lage token doesn't have "Indestructible" on it, despite what printed versions of the token might lead you to believe. The Marit Lage token is indestructible not due to an ability it has, but rather due to a continuous effect that began when the token was created. There is nothing that could be printed on the token to convey this fact, since the Indestructibility comes from an effect outside of the token, not from an ability the token has. (I suppose "As ~ comes into play, ~ is indestructible as long as it's in play" would achieve an equivalent result, but that's kind of stilted.)
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  • #23
    Sort of a different question, but still about indestructible- things like Divine Offering, what happens when they target an indestructible card?

    Would you still get the life, but the artifact stays in play, or does the entire ability fizzle?

    From reading the card itself, it doesn't sound like it has to go to the graveyard, so you'd gain the life regardless of whether it actually dies, but I'm not sure if you can even target an indestructible with the card in the first place.
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  • #24
    Quote from subx »
    Would you still get the life, but the artifact stays in play
    Yes; you'll still gain the life, and the artifact will remain in play.
    or does the entire ability fizzle?
    Fizzling refers to a spell being countered for lack of legal targets -- either as a result of the targets being missing or illegal.
  • #25
    Quote from subx
    Sort of a different question, but still about indestructible- things like Divine Offering, what happens when they target an indestructible card?

    Would you still get the life, but the artifact stays in play, or does the entire ability fizzle?

    From reading the card itself, it doesn't sound like it has to go to the graveyard, so you'd gain the life regardless of whether it actually dies, but I'm not sure if you can even target an indestructible with the card in the first place.


    The ability of Divine Offering doesn't fizzle. Spells fizzle. Only things on the stack fizzle, and the ability of a spell is not such a one as an ability which is on the stack. EDIT: There are two meanings of "ability," is what I mean, here.

    Fizzling is the countering of a spell or ability by the game rules because that spell or ability has no legal targets. Divine Offering's target is still an artifact, so it's still legal. Thus, fizzling does not occur.

    We know in fact that nothing stops the spell from resolving, in your question. Therefore you follow all the spells instructions, ignoring impossible ones. The two instructions, to destroy [that] artifact, and to gain life, are separate. You can gain life even if the destruction of that artifact is not successful - as long as we know the spell is resolving.
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  • #26
    Right, I knew what I meant when I said fizzle actually - that it's not a legal target, since one part of the card doesn't work. I didn't think it was an illegal target, but wasn't quite sure.

    Also wasn't clear on if the second part relied on the first part resolving and actually "destroying something."

    Thanks that's pretty much what I thought would happen.
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