Gleemax reads:
You choose all targets for all spells and abilities.
My question is, does the target has to be legal? I say no. It will fizzle.
Either way, lets suppose I change the target to a NONLEGAL spell. For example, moving echoing truth's target to a land. Will it return the land? I again say no, cuz it says "Return target(Which you moved) nonland permanent." E. Truth will notice that it aint a nonland, and will fizzle.
What do judges say on this?
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Quote from Jedit, regarding Walls »
"OK, lads, here they come! Move that Wall of Stone ... a-one, a-two, and a-THREE!"
Quote from dragyn_mage »
I think assaulting another player should have a range of penalties. (A light slap is a game loss, a kick in the nuts is a DQ, ghetto-stomping someone is a Ban for Life.) There could be article all about it, like "when to mulligan"
Yes, you are correct. The lands becomes a target and the effect drops out. The card doesn't care if it is legal or not.
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I just had an interesting conversation with some judges at an Irc Channel.
<Nushio> hello
<Niton> question?
<Nushio> yeah
<Nushio> unhinged
<Niton> what's the question?
<Nushio> can ya help me?
<Nushio> great
<Nushio> its about Gleemax
<Nushio> he says you move targets as you wish
<Niton> and the question is?
<Nushio> You choose all targets for all spells and abilities.
<Niton> thats how it works
<Nushio> lets suppose i play echoing truth
<Nushio> can i change the target to a nonlegal target?
<Nushio> such as that land over there
<Nushio> or that spell on the stack?
<Niton> Gleemax deems this incorrect.
<Nushio> he doesnt say it has to be legal
<Niton> Gleemax does not condone illegal targetting.
<Nushio> he just toys around with targets
<Niton> Gleemax does not say it, but Gleemax also does not condone it.
<Davey79> lol
<Niton> You must follow the will of Gleemax.
<Nushio> grip of chaos says "legal targets must be chosen"
<Nushio> gleemax does not
<Davey79> That's reminder text.
<Davey79> If you get to choose a target, it has to be legal.
<Niton> Gleemax does not change game rules, just how Gleemax is allowed to target.
<Nushio> game rules does not mention target changing
<Niton> Gleemax is friends with Floral Spuzzem.
<Davey79> You're not changing targets.
<Davey79> Gleemax makes you choose targets.
<Nushio> You choose all targets for all spells and abilities.
<Niton> Gleemax makes you choose a target. Gleemax would not allow you to target Kodama of the North Tree, so Gleemax would not allow you to target Lands with cannot target Lands spells.
<Nushio> i still say he doesnt mention legality
<Jyson19> Can Provoke be used on a creature already untapped?
<Niton> Gleemax is absolute.
<Niton> Jyson, yes.
<Jyson19> ty
<Nushio> oh, kodama is different
<Nushio> cuz he simply CANT be target
<Nushio> at all
<Niton> No, it's no different.
<Davey79> He says, "you choose all targets" ... anytime you choose targets, they have to be legal.
<Niton> Lands simply can't be targets of Echoing Truth.
<Nushio> how about spells on the stack?
<Niton> Spells on the stack are not a permanent.
<Niton> Gleemax does not allow you to maximize your glee by Gleemaxing spells.
<Nushio> haha
<Nushio> hmmm
<Nushio> but they can be target
<Nushio> a land can be target at any time
<Nushio> if the target was illegal, the ability would fizzle
<Niton> A land can only be a target if the spell being cast allows a land as a target.
<Niton> Gleemax, as well as the player who is its slave, is not allowed to target things it cannot.
<Davey79> You can't choose an illegal target either.
<Davey79> Targets are checked twice; when you cast the spell, and when it resolves.
<Nushio> hmmm
<Nushio> i just want to use gleemax by fizzling everyone's targetting goodness
<Davey79> Find another card
<Niton> Gleemax does not allow this.
<Niton> Gleemax will refuse to intervene in affairs in which its cast spell does not apply.
<Niton> Gleemax is the world.
<Nushio> im still unsure, but ill take that answer
<Nushio> thanks
<Niton> Gleemax thanks you for your thanks.
<Nushio> haha
<Nushio> alright
<Nushio> see ya
And that was it.
Im still intrigued by this question. Can anyone point out to a rule in the CR (ill look for it too) that points out the rule number that says that i cant do this? Gleemax doesnt say it has to be legal, But grip of chaos has it as reminder text...
Edit:
415.7. Changing Targets
415.7a The target of a spell or ability can change only to another legal target. If the target can't be changed to another legal target, the original target is unchanged.
415.7b Modal spells and abilities may have different targeting requirements for each mode. Changing a spell or ability's target can't change its mode.
415.7c The word "you" in an object's text isn't a target.
"OK, lads, here they come! Move that Wall of Stone ... a-one, a-two, and a-THREE!"
Quote from dragyn_mage »
I think assaulting another player should have a range of penalties. (A light slap is a game loss, a kick in the nuts is a DQ, ghetto-stomping someone is a Ban for Life.) There could be article all about it, like "when to mulligan"
You are CHOOSING the targets, not CHANGING them. It is similar to you playing a spell and declaring targets - you cannot choose an illegal target to start with, the target can only be made illegal after it is chosen. Therefore, you cannot force Echoing Truth with Gleemax onto an illegal target because it was a target that could not have been chosen anyway.
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What happens is:
- Your opponent announces Echoing Truth.
- As the spell is being played, you choose the target. You must, therefore, choose legally.
- The spell then goes on the stack.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
Sorry to bring back this thread, but I've seen it come up recently and was convinced it goes another way.
409. Playing Spells and Activated Abilities
409.1. Playing a spell or activated ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the playing of a spell or ability, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the spell was played illegally; the game returns to the moment before that spell or ability was played (see rule 422, “Handling Illegal Actions”). Announcements and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.
...
409.1c If the spell or ability requires any targets, the player first announces how many targets he or she will choose (if the spell or ability has a variable number of targets), then announces the targets themselves. A player can’t play a spell or ability unless he or she chooses the required number of legal targets. The same target can’t be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word “target” on the spell or ability. If the spell or ability uses the word “target” in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word “target” (as long as it fits the targeting criteria).
So the game backs up. Right?
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My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
Sorry to bring back this thread, but I've seen it come up recently and was convinced it goes another way.
So the game backs up. Right?
That is the way it should work. And then they will try to cast it again. And if you just continually choose illegal targets, you would probably end up with a penalty for unsporting conduct or stalling (Possibly others, I'm not a judge, and I've never recieved a penalty. But from the penalties I know of, these seem the most likely IMO). Assuming you were playing Gleemax at a tournament.
...... to the point where in illegal action was taken - choosing an illegal target. Not to the point where the spell was played, which was a legal thing to do.
You can't choose an illegal target, period. It doesn't matter who is doing the choosing.
...... to the point where in illegal action was taken - choosing an illegal target. Not to the point where the spell was played, which was a legal thing to do.
Why does everyone keep saying GLeemax changes targets?
THE TARGET NEVER CHANGES.
Instead of the player playing the ability choosing the target, you choose the target.
This modifies the way people carry out rule 409.1c, choosing targets. Instead of the player, you will choose those targets. You also choose how many targets there are.
Later on though, in steps 409.1d and 409.1e, when the player would choose which target corresponds to which instance of the word "target", and how to divide effects in abilities of the type "Do [foo] divided as you choose among [number] target [something]s", THAT PLAYER does them.
This means that if I play Arc Lightning and you have Gleemax, you tell me how many targets there are (you must choose 1, 2, or 3), then you point them out.
But then I get to choose where I put the damage. I must divide at least 1 damage to each target.
Similarly, if I play Schismotivate, you point out which creatures I target (which must be different and legal).
But then I choose which one will get +4/+0 and which one will get -4/-0.
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You choose all targets for all spells and abilities.
My question is, does the target has to be legal? I say no. It will fizzle.
Either way, lets suppose I change the target to a NONLEGAL spell. For example, moving echoing truth's target to a land. Will it return the land? I again say no, cuz it says "Return target(Which you moved) nonland permanent." E. Truth will notice that it aint a nonland, and will fizzle.
What do judges say on this?
Creator of The Crazy Cycle Contest [CCC]
:bunny:Ex Co-Keeper of Tribal, Multiplayer and Peasant Make a Deck
Ex-Clan Representative and The Woolliest Pirate Of The [Forum Pirates]
Ex-Super-Friend of The Random Bull**** Society
Ex-Woolliest Friend of [Hyrule]
<Nushio> hello
<Niton> question?
<Nushio> yeah
<Nushio> unhinged
<Niton> what's the question?
<Nushio> can ya help me?
<Nushio> great
<Nushio> its about Gleemax
<Nushio> he says you move targets as you wish
<Niton> and the question is?
<Nushio> You choose all targets for all spells and abilities.
<Niton> thats how it works
<Nushio> lets suppose i play echoing truth
<Nushio> can i change the target to a nonlegal target?
<Nushio> such as that land over there
<Nushio> or that spell on the stack?
<Niton> Gleemax deems this incorrect.
<Nushio> he doesnt say it has to be legal
<Niton> Gleemax does not condone illegal targetting.
<Nushio> he just toys around with targets
<Niton> Gleemax does not say it, but Gleemax also does not condone it.
<Davey79> lol
<Niton> You must follow the will of Gleemax.
<Nushio> grip of chaos says "legal targets must be chosen"
<Nushio> gleemax does not
<Davey79> That's reminder text.
<Davey79> If you get to choose a target, it has to be legal.
<Niton> Gleemax does not change game rules, just how Gleemax is allowed to target.
<Nushio> game rules does not mention target changing
<Niton> Gleemax is friends with Floral Spuzzem.
<Davey79> You're not changing targets.
<Davey79> Gleemax makes you choose targets.
<Nushio> You choose all targets for all spells and abilities.
<Niton> Gleemax makes you choose a target. Gleemax would not allow you to target Kodama of the North Tree, so Gleemax would not allow you to target Lands with cannot target Lands spells.
<Nushio> i still say he doesnt mention legality
<Jyson19> Can Provoke be used on a creature already untapped?
<Niton> Gleemax is absolute.
<Niton> Jyson, yes.
<Jyson19> ty
<Nushio> oh, kodama is different
<Nushio> cuz he simply CANT be target
<Nushio> at all
<Niton> No, it's no different.
<Davey79> He says, "you choose all targets" ... anytime you choose targets, they have to be legal.
<Niton> Lands simply can't be targets of Echoing Truth.
<Nushio> how about spells on the stack?
<Niton> Spells on the stack are not a permanent.
<Niton> Gleemax does not allow you to maximize your glee by Gleemaxing spells.
<Nushio> haha
<Nushio> hmmm
<Nushio> but they can be target
<Nushio> a land can be target at any time
<Nushio> if the target was illegal, the ability would fizzle
<Niton> A land can only be a target if the spell being cast allows a land as a target.
<Niton> Gleemax, as well as the player who is its slave, is not allowed to target things it cannot.
<Davey79> You can't choose an illegal target either.
<Davey79> Targets are checked twice; when you cast the spell, and when it resolves.
<Nushio> hmmm
<Nushio> i just want to use gleemax by fizzling everyone's targetting goodness
<Davey79> Find another card
<Niton> Gleemax does not allow this.
<Niton> Gleemax will refuse to intervene in affairs in which its cast spell does not apply.
<Niton> Gleemax is the world.
<Nushio> im still unsure, but ill take that answer
<Nushio> thanks
<Niton> Gleemax thanks you for your thanks.
<Nushio> haha
<Nushio> alright
<Nushio> see ya
Im still intrigued by this question. Can anyone point out to a rule in the CR (ill look for it too) that points out the rule number that says that i cant do this? Gleemax doesnt say it has to be legal, But grip of chaos has it as reminder text...
Edit:
415.7. Changing Targets
415.7a The target of a spell or ability can change only to another legal target. If the target can't be changed to another legal target, the original target is unchanged.
415.7b Modal spells and abilities may have different targeting requirements for each mode. Changing a spell or ability's target can't change its mode.
415.7c The word "you" in an object's text isn't a target.
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
- Your opponent announces Echoing Truth.
- As the spell is being played, you choose the target. You must, therefore, choose legally.
- The spell then goes on the stack.
In other words, Erad is right.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
So the game backs up. Right?
That is the way it should work. And then they will try to cast it again. And if you just continually choose illegal targets, you would probably end up with a penalty for unsporting conduct or stalling (Possibly others, I'm not a judge, and I've never recieved a penalty. But from the penalties I know of, these seem the most likely IMO). Assuming you were playing Gleemax at a tournament.
Extendo
You can't choose an illegal target, period. It doesn't matter who is doing the choosing.
Gotcha. Gotta remember that. Thnx Condor!
Extendo
THE TARGET NEVER CHANGES.
Instead of the player playing the ability choosing the target, you choose the target.
This modifies the way people carry out rule 409.1c, choosing targets. Instead of the player, you will choose those targets. You also choose how many targets there are.
Later on though, in steps 409.1d and 409.1e, when the player would choose which target corresponds to which instance of the word "target", and how to divide effects in abilities of the type "Do [foo] divided as you choose among [number] target [something]s", THAT PLAYER does them.
This means that if I play Arc Lightning and you have Gleemax, you tell me how many targets there are (you must choose 1, 2, or 3), then you point them out.
But then I get to choose where I put the damage. I must divide at least 1 damage to each target.
Similarly, if I play Schismotivate, you point out which creatures I target (which must be different and legal).
But then I choose which one will get +4/+0 and which one will get -4/-0.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].