Nivix Cyclops and trigger announcements

  • #1
    The following situation happened during my pre-release:

    I was playing against a Judge Level 1 in a 10 player tournament. I had a Nivix Cyclops along with some other creatures in play. I cast Annihilating Fire during my main phase and killed one of his creatures. Didn't say anything about triggering Nivix Cyclops.

    I then attacked with all of my creatures, including Nivix Cyclops. After thinking one minute, he finally said Nivix Cyclops can't attack because he has defender. I told him I played an instant before, but he said I didn't annouce the trigger.

    I hate nitpicking in a ****ing 10 player tournament, but that should not be the matter here. It didn't really matter at the end, because I was REALLY FAR ahaid, so I just said "okay" and untapped my creature.

    I'm not really 100% aware of the new rules (what I need to announce and what not), but I was of the opinion that because there's no "you may have Nivix Cyclops lose defender whenever you play an instant or sorcery spell", I don't need to announce anything and it's according to the new rules if I just put it sideways in my declare attackers step.

    So guys... what's the correct play here?
  • #2
    1) At REL regular the missed trigger would just go on the stack if caught within a reasonable time frame.
    2) That's a reasonable time frame
    3) If this were REL Competitive, you would need to demonstrate awareness of the trigger before you take an action past when it would impact the game. Immediately attacking, to me, demonstrates awareness of the trigger, before doing anything else that might demonstrate you missed it.

    So to me it sounds like you never missed the trigger, and even if you did, if this were at REL regular (which I assume it was since the judge was playing in the event), it would immediately be placed on the stack. Although my answer is based on the given information. To be exact, I would have had to been there myself.

    How to correct this for the future? Pull the judge aside, talk to them casually about the situation, educate them on their error and move on. You're probably hurt that they made a mistake against you, but judges are human, just like you, and we make mistakes. It's probably best that if you have a question against a judge that you call for a judge, and have someone else answer instead of them while playing them. They might want to be aware of this too, so give them that solid advice, on the house. Wink
    L2
    Lapsed Rules Adviser Rolleyes
  • #3
    From the MTR:
    Triggered abilities are considered to be forgotten by their controller once they have taken an action past the point where the triggered ability would have an observable impact on the game.


    Casting a spell during your precombat main phase and then attempting to attack with Cyclops certainly doesn't sound like forgetting a trigger to me. Teach
  • #4
    Quote from EX33396948
    1) At REL regular the missed trigger would just go on the stack if caught within a reasonable time frame.
    2) That's a reasonable time frame
    3) If this were REL Competitive, you would need to demonstrate awareness of the trigger before you take an action past when it would impact the game. Immediately attacking, to me, demonstrates awareness of the trigger, before doing anything else that might demonstrate you missed it.


    Well, of course I did some thinking before attacking and there was a Ral Zarek activation too after I played my Annihilating Fire, so I did some things before declaring my attackers. Don't know if this makes any difference. Does it?

    Quote from EX33396948
    How to correct this for the future? Pull the judge aside, talk to them casually about the situation, educate them on their error and move on. You're probably hurt that they made a mistake against you, but judges are human, just like you, and we make mistakes. It's probably best that if you have a question against a judge that you call for a judge, and have someone else answer instead of them while playing them.


    It's not a huge deal anyway. It happened in my local store, we all know each other, we all care about each other. I just wanted to clarify that for myself. Smile

    The store owner is also a judge level 1. I really like him, but to be honest, I am pretty sure I know the rules way better than he does. ^^ All he said about this situation was: "he (my opponent) is a Judge, so he's right, and when I play against him I should absolutely play according to the rules".

    @Lithl: do you have a link to that quote?
  • #5
    Quote from Achamian
    @Lithl: do you have a link to that quote?
    It's the second paragraph (of two) in section 4.4 of the Magic Tournament Rules.

    Quote from Achamian
    The store owner is also a judge level 1. I really like him, but to be honest, I am pretty sure I know the rules way better than he does. ^^ All he said about this situation was: "he (my opponent) is a Judge, so he's right, and when I play against him I should absolutely play according to the rules".
    Was your opponent actually registered as a/the judge for the event, or did he simply have a judge certification?

    If he's not the judge for the event, then what he says doesn't really have much bearing. If he is a judge for the event and you don't like his ruling, you can appeal the the head judge. If he is the head judge for the event, then his rulings can override any other rules/rulings published elsewhere for the duration of the event, and you have no other recourse. (If the HJ is frequently making outrageous rulings flying in the face of the game rules and tournament policy and such, you can report them to the DCI, but there's nothing you can do for the event in question. The HJ's word is law for the duration of the event.)
  • #6
    Afaik according to the new way triggers are handled you must announce everything verbally. If you forget its just too bad. Sounds like mr. Judge is a sore loser though Smile
  • #7
    Is this the latest update to the trigger rules?
    http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/233

    The way I read it, you only have to acknowledge the trigger happened when you calculate combat damage. This type of issue has been hampering my play group and we have yet to get everything ironed out. This is the portion that I think this situation would fall under.

    A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways.


    The controller must take physical action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state. Many triggered abilities, like exalted and the first ability of Jace, Architect of Thought, fall under this case. Say you attack alone with a creature with exalted. No choices are required when the ability triggers and is put onto the stack, so you don't have to say anything yet. No actions are required when the ability resolves, so you don't have to say anything then, either. (Compare this to an ability that instructs you to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature. The rules require you to actually do that at this point.) But, at some point, damage will be assigned and the triggered ability will have an effect on the visible game state, which includes life totals. This is the point when you need to say something. The bar isn't extraordinarily high here. If the creature is a 2/1 before the bonus, saying "take 3" is great, as is "plus 1 for exalted," and many other variations.

    But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you.
  • #8
    Quote from CouscCous191
    The way I read it, you only have to acknowledge the trigger happened when you calculate combat damage. This type of issue has been hampering my play group and we have yet to get everything ironed out. This is the portion that I think this situation would fall under.


    At Regular REL, the policy is not quite as strict when it comes to enforcement. Whereas in a Competitive REL setting we do have some set guidelines as to when the trigger needs to be acknowledge.

    In either situation, declaring Nivix Cyclops as an attacker is fine. That would certainly be in keeping at Regular REL, as the first time there is an "affect on the game state" is whether Nivix Cyclops could attack or not. That's also fitting under the guidelines outlined in the MIPG at Competitive REL.

    In short, while it is possible that there may have been extenuating circumstances or something not being relayed about the situation, I see no reason that Nivix Cyclops would be unable to attack. The effect of the trigger was acknowledged at a reasonable point in time in the turn, certainly in a way that would work naturally with how players actually play the game. The trigger doesn't have to be explicitly acknowledge when it would resolve, just when it "affects" the game.
    DCI Regional Judge (L3)
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