Hive mind is in play, and I cast Approach of the Second Sun. Assuming that this is the first time that Approach has been cast this game, what happens? Since I was the one who cast the physical card, does the card go into my library only? Or do my opponents get a proxy/token placed seventh from the top in their libraries, too? Plus seven life each?
Your card will go into your library seventh from the top, and you gain 7 life.
Each other player puts their copy (which was not cast, so it has no chance of mattering for the first part of the effect) seventh from the top of their library and gains 7 life. But since their copy will soon cease to exist, it is not worthwhile for them to count and pick up the top six cards.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
704.5e If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist. If a copy of a card is in any zone other than the stack or the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Each other player puts their copy... seventh from the top of their library and gains 7 life. But since their copy will soon cease to exist, it is not worthwhile for them to count and pick up the top six cards.
704.5e If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist. If a copy of a card is in any zone other than the stack or the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
Argus, are you saying that the original spell (mine) goes to the stack and remains on the stack until a second Approach of the Second Sun is cast? But the copy or copies that Hivemind creates don't go on the stack? Could you explain this in a bit more detail? I'm not following how this works. (What's actually happening when Hivemind copies a spell.)
Each other player puts their copy (which was not cast, so it has no chance of mattering for the first part of the effect) seventh from the top of their library and gains 7 life. But since their copy will soon cease to exist, it is not worthwhile for them to count and pick up the top six cards.
If Hivemind's copy of Approach isn't actually a "casting," then when the card is placed in my opponent(s) library or libraries as well as in mine, I've already cast the sorcery once, but they haven't. I can dig out the card from my library and win, but they can't. Is that what you're talking about? Or is it something about the stack?
When you cast Approach of the Second Sun from your hand while you control Hive Mind, each other player copies that spell. Copying a spell will put that spell onto the stack (above the original spell), so that each copy will get to resolve before the original (C.R. 707.10, 405.2, 117.4). Each copy isn't "cast", though (C.R. 707.10).
For each copy of Approach of the Second Sun, since the copy wasn't cast (whether from a player's hand or otherwise), all the copy does is go to "its owner's library seventh from the top" (which generally has no practical effect since the copy will cease to exist soon after [C.R. 704.5e]) and give its controller 7 life. (Under C.R. 707.10, the owner of a copy of a spell is usually the same player as its controller.)
On the other hand, when the original Approach of the Second Sun resolves, you will win the game if you have cast another spell named Approach of the Second Sun this game. Otherwise, you will put the original spell into your library seventh from the top and gain 7 life.
EDIT (Oct. 10): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
For each copy of Approach of the Second Sun, since the copy wasn't cast (whether from a player's hand or otherwise), all the copy does is go to "its owner's library seventh from the top" (which generally has no practical effect since the copy will cease to exist soon after [C.R. 704.5e]) and give its controller 7 life. (Under C.R. 706.10, the owner of a copy of a spell is usually the same player as its controller.)
I think I generally understand now, but there are still a couple of points that I'm not clear on. (I appreciate your patience.)
Here's the point that I think I'm most unclear about. The text written on Approach of the Second Sun says, "... put Approach of the Second Sun into its owner's library seventh from the top and you gain 7 life."
Approach of the Second Sun isn't a permanent. It's just a physical sorcery card. I OWN the physical sorcery card, but my opponent doesn't. Is that the key point here? I have a spell on the stack just like my opponent, and my spell on the stack will shortly cease to exist, too, just like my opponent's spell on the stack. When my opponent's copy of the spell implements the text that is written on the physical card, a copy of a non-physical spell is placed in their library seventh from the top. Why isn't the physical card or a token or proxy copy of the physical card placed in my opponent's library? I get a physical card in my library, and my opponent gets a non-physical spell placed in their library. Is this because my opponent owns the copy of the spell that Hive Mind makes but doesn't own the physical card?
I understand that Hive Mind copies the spell for my opponent, but my opponent's copy of the spell says to put Approach of the Second Sun into my opponent's library, not HIS COPY of Approach of the Second Sun, but Approach of the Second Sun, into his library. Why does "Approach of the Second Sun" mean the physical card for me, and the non-physical spell on the stack for my opponent? That's not intuitively clear to me. Note, I'm not challenging the rules or anything. I'm just trying to understand how the mechanics of the game work. So that I know how to read a Magic card and implement what it says intuitively in the future.
Argus, are you saying that the original spell (mine) goes to the stack and remains on the stack until a second Approach of the Second Sun is cast? But the copy or copies that Hivemind creates don't go on the stack? Could you explain this in a bit more detail? I'm not following how this works. (What's actually happening when Hivemind copies a spell.)
Here's a bit more detail. I'll assume there are only two players and the Hive Mind is your opponent's (not that it matters much). Also, for this first sequence, I'll assume that this is the first time you're casting that spell this game.
Your main phase begins.
You get priority and cast Approach of the Second Sun. You pay the cost of 6W using mana obtained in an unspecified way. This triggers the ability of Hive Mind.
You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. Opponent puts "Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, each other player copies that spell. Each of those players may choose new targets for their copy." on the stack.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 3) resolves. Opponent copies the spell cast in step 2. The copy goes on the stack under their control (and ownership), but it was not cast and is not a card. (In particular, it is not the card that was put on the stack in step 2.)
706.10. To copy a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell isn’t cast and a copy of an activated ability isn’t activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it, including modes, targets, the value of X, and additional or alternative costs. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”) Choices that are normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell or ability is controlled by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the spell copy put there in step 6) resolves. The "if" condition isn't met because it wasn't cast from opponent's hand (or at all), so the "otherwise" clause is used. Opponent technically puts the copy into their library seventh from the top (but see step 10) and gains 7 life.
You would get priority, but there is a state-based action to process. A copy of a spell is in opponent's library, so that copy ceases to exist. In other words, finding something to represent that copy long enough to add it to a library would have been a complete waste of time.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 2) resolves. You did cast it from your hand, but the "and you've cast another spell named Approach of the Second Sun this game" part fails. Like your opponent, you proceed to the "otherwise" part of the effect: You put the card in your library seventh from the top and gain 7 life.
You get priority and pass.
So, later in the game, you get Approach of the Second Sun in your hand again. Maybe it's the same card, maybe it isn't, but that doesn't matter at all (as stated in rule 400.7). Most of the sequence is the same as before.
When the opponent's copy resolves in step 9, they'll use the "otherwise" clause again, even if they had their own Approach of the Second Sun and cast it in the meantime. When your spell resolves in step 13, the "if" clause is completely met, and you win.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
The name "Approach of the Second Sun" in the text of the *spell*, whichever spell that is, means that spell. The object which is that spell - a card or a copy of a spell. That instruction makes the player put that spell into its owner's library. ADD: The instruction on the spell I mean, and the copy got all the text of your card by copying it, so that is the instruction on it.
The owner of copies of cards, copies of spells, and tokens changed -somewhat- recently. CR112.2 holds that copies of spells, and copies of cards, while they are spells, are owned by the first player who controlled them on the Stack. Hive Mind created the copies on the Stack under your opponents' control, so your opponent owns them.
The copy ceases to exist because copies of cards, copies of spells, and tokens, only belong in some zones, and the game poofs them away where they aren't meant to be. Your Approach card does not cease to exist - it moves into your library. There's a difference.
I do not know what you're getting at when you say Approach isn't a permanent but is a sorcery card. It's true, but I don't get it.
The text "Approach of the Second Sun", where it appears in "... put Approach of the Second Sun into ...", means only the object where that text appears, even if that object isn't a card, and it does not mean any other object even if it has the same name (C.R. 201.4). Thus, for example, if that text appears on a copy of Approach of the Second Sun, it means only the copy and not the original or any other copy. However, the text "...another spell named Approach of the Second Sun...", means only another spell with that exact name since that text doesn't refer to the object it's on by name.
If Approach of the Second Sun is a card (rather than a copy of a spell), if you own that spell, and if it tells you to "put Approach of the Second Sun into its owner's library seventh from the top", you put that particular card there (you don't put any copy of that spell into that library) (C.R. 201.4). When the spell finishes resolving, it will remain in your library at that position, since it's a card. (The fact that Approach of the Second Sun is a sorcery and not a permanent is irrelevant.)
If Approach of the Second Sun is a copy of a spell, if you own that copy, and if the copy tells you to "put Approach of the Second Sun into its owner's library seventh from the top", you put that particular copy there (you don't put the original or any other copy in that library) (C.R. 201.4). When the copy finishes resolving, the copy will cease to exist since it's in the library but not a card (C.R. 117.3b, 117.5, 704.5e).
When a player copies a spell, that player both owns and controls the copy (even though they may not necessarily own or control the original spell) (C.R. 707.10).
EDIT (Oct. 10): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
When my opponent's copy of the spell implements the text that is written on the physical card, a copy of a non-physical spell is placed in their library seventh from the top. Why isn't the physical card or a token or proxy copy of the physical card placed in my opponent's library?
The physical card is not placed there because your opponent's copy is not the physical card.
A token or proxy copy is not placed there because that would be pointless as it gets yanked out and thrown away a few seconds later.
I understand that Hive Mind copies the spell for my opponent, but my opponent's copy of the spell says to put Approach of the Second Sun into my opponent's library, not HIS COPY of Approach of the Second Sun, but Approach of the Second Sun, into his library. Why does "Approach of the Second Sun" mean the physical card for me, and the non-physical spell on the stack for my opponent? That's not intuitively clear to me. Note, I'm not challenging the rules or anything. I'm just trying to understand how the mechanics of the game work. So that I know how to read a Magic card and implement what it says intuitively in the future.
201.4. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.
See my sequence above for references to step numbers.
On the spell cast in step 2, the instruction beginning "put Approach of the Second Sun into ...." refers to the spell cast in step 2.
On the copy created in step 6, the instruction beginning "put Approach of the Second Sun into ...." refers to the copy created in step 6.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Hive mind is in play, and I cast Approach of the Second Sun. Assuming that this is the first time that Approach has been cast this game, what happens? Since I was the one who cast the physical card, does the card go into my library only? Or do my opponents get a proxy/token placed seventh from the top in their libraries, too? Plus seven life each?
Each other player puts their copy (which was not cast, so it has no chance of mattering for the first part of the effect) seventh from the top of their library and gains 7 life. But since their copy will soon cease to exist, it is not worthwhile for them to count and pick up the top six cards.
For each copy of Approach of the Second Sun, since the copy wasn't cast (whether from a player's hand or otherwise), all the copy does is go to "its owner's library seventh from the top" (which generally has no practical effect since the copy will cease to exist soon after [C.R. 704.5e]) and give its controller 7 life. (Under C.R. 707.10, the owner of a copy of a spell is usually the same player as its controller.)
On the other hand, when the original Approach of the Second Sun resolves, you will win the game if you have cast another spell named Approach of the Second Sun this game. Otherwise, you will put the original spell into your library seventh from the top and gain 7 life.
EDIT (Oct. 10): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
Here's the point that I think I'm most unclear about. The text written on Approach of the Second Sun says, "... put Approach of the Second Sun into its owner's library seventh from the top and you gain 7 life."
Approach of the Second Sun isn't a permanent. It's just a physical sorcery card. I OWN the physical sorcery card, but my opponent doesn't. Is that the key point here? I have a spell on the stack just like my opponent, and my spell on the stack will shortly cease to exist, too, just like my opponent's spell on the stack. When my opponent's copy of the spell implements the text that is written on the physical card, a copy of a non-physical spell is placed in their library seventh from the top. Why isn't the physical card or a token or proxy copy of the physical card placed in my opponent's library? I get a physical card in my library, and my opponent gets a non-physical spell placed in their library. Is this because my opponent owns the copy of the spell that Hive Mind makes but doesn't own the physical card?
I understand that Hive Mind copies the spell for my opponent, but my opponent's copy of the spell says to put Approach of the Second Sun into my opponent's library, not HIS COPY of Approach of the Second Sun, but Approach of the Second Sun, into his library. Why does "Approach of the Second Sun" mean the physical card for me, and the non-physical spell on the stack for my opponent? That's not intuitively clear to me. Note, I'm not challenging the rules or anything. I'm just trying to understand how the mechanics of the game work. So that I know how to read a Magic card and implement what it says intuitively in the future.
Here's a bit more detail. I'll assume there are only two players and the Hive Mind is your opponent's (not that it matters much). Also, for this first sequence, I'll assume that this is the first time you're casting that spell this game.
So, later in the game, you get Approach of the Second Sun in your hand again. Maybe it's the same card, maybe it isn't, but that doesn't matter at all (as stated in rule 400.7). Most of the sequence is the same as before.
When the opponent's copy resolves in step 9, they'll use the "otherwise" clause again, even if they had their own Approach of the Second Sun and cast it in the meantime. When your spell resolves in step 13, the "if" clause is completely met, and you win.
The owner of copies of cards, copies of spells, and tokens changed -somewhat- recently. CR112.2 holds that copies of spells, and copies of cards, while they are spells, are owned by the first player who controlled them on the Stack. Hive Mind created the copies on the Stack under your opponents' control, so your opponent owns them.
The copy ceases to exist because copies of cards, copies of spells, and tokens, only belong in some zones, and the game poofs them away where they aren't meant to be. Your Approach card does not cease to exist - it moves into your library. There's a difference.
I do not know what you're getting at when you say Approach isn't a permanent but is a sorcery card. It's true, but I don't get it.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
If Approach of the Second Sun is a card (rather than a copy of a spell), if you own that spell, and if it tells you to "put Approach of the Second Sun into its owner's library seventh from the top", you put that particular card there (you don't put any copy of that spell into that library) (C.R. 201.4). When the spell finishes resolving, it will remain in your library at that position, since it's a card. (The fact that Approach of the Second Sun is a sorcery and not a permanent is irrelevant.)
If Approach of the Second Sun is a copy of a spell, if you own that copy, and if the copy tells you to "put Approach of the Second Sun into its owner's library seventh from the top", you put that particular copy there (you don't put the original or any other copy in that library) (C.R. 201.4). When the copy finishes resolving, the copy will cease to exist since it's in the library but not a card (C.R. 117.3b, 117.5, 704.5e).
When a player copies a spell, that player both owns and controls the copy (even though they may not necessarily own or control the original spell) (C.R. 707.10).
EDIT (Oct. 10): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
The physical card is not placed there because your opponent's copy is not the physical card.
A token or proxy copy is not placed there because that would be pointless as it gets yanked out and thrown away a few seconds later.
See my sequence above for references to step numbers.
On the spell cast in step 2, the instruction beginning "put Approach of the Second Sun into ...." refers to the spell cast in step 2.
On the copy created in step 6, the instruction beginning "put Approach of the Second Sun into ...." refers to the copy created in step 6.