A hypothetical scenario (for now) popped into my head and I'm not completely sure about the outcome.
Stonecoil Serpent is on the field with some counters. Opponent plays his own Stonecoil Serpent, with let's say X=3. I respond with Mystical Reflection on my own Serpent. Does the creature enter as 3/3 or 0/0? Does the answer change if the creature spell is instead a Wildwood Scourge (X=3)?
In both cases, the "enter the battlefield as copies" replacement takes precedence over the "enters the battlefield with counters" replacement effect (C.R. 616.1c, 616.1e, 614.1c). As a result, Stonecoil Serpent's copiable values will be replaced with those of the chosen creature (see also an example in C.R. 616.1e). And the latter include the ability "Stonecoil Serpent enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it" in both cases. Now we apply the new replacement effect from the latter ability (C.R. 616.1e). Since the newly acquired ability has an "enters-the-battlefield ... replacement effect [that] refers to X" (C.R. 614.1c), the X on that ability is the same as the spell's (C.R. 107.3m), so the creature will enter the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it.
EDIT: Struck out certain text after comment 8 was posted. See comment 4.
Based on Altered Ego I don't believe this is accurate. The X in the original "instance" does not transfer to the X of the permanent:
If the chosen creature has X in its mana cost, that X is considered to be 0. The value of X in Altered Ego’s last ability will be whatever value was chosen for X while casting Altered Ego. [4/8/2016]
While it is not the same situation it seems to suggest that copying something else confers a brand new instance of "X" that we care about. Ego still provides counters because of its own ability but that will not translate into anything else that has X in the mana cost that might be copied. Just because we are copying the same thing in this situation, it is a new instance and X is 0.
As mentioned above, the "enter the battlefield as a copy" works first so the only value of X for the "enter the battlefield with" X value can only be 0.
Or, perhaps in short: Altered Ego with X=3 copying a Serpent doesn't give 6 counters. It only gets counters because of its own copy effect. That additional action/effect is not present here.
Based on Altered Ego I don't believe this is accurate. The X in the original "instance" does not transfer to the X of the permanent:
If the chosen creature has X in its mana cost, that X is considered to be 0. The value of X in Altered Ego’s last ability will be whatever value was chosen for X while casting Altered Ego. [4/8/2016]
While it is not the same situation it seems to suggest that copying something else confers a brand new instance of "X" that we care about. Ego still provides counters because of its own ability but that will not translate into anything else that has X in the mana cost that might be copied. Just because we are copying the same thing in this situation, it is a new instance and X is 0.
Indeed, this situation is arguably covered under C.R. 107.3j, because the object in question "gains an ability" that "doesn't define a value of X", namely "Stonecoil Serpent enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it". However, both C.R. 107.3j and C.R. 107.3m say they're exceptions to C.R. 107.3i and both rules appear not to be mutually exclusive. Namely, in this scenario—
that ability has an "enters-the-battlefield ... replacement effect [that] refers to X, and [the associated spell] had a value of X chosen for any of its costs", so that X should be the same as that spell's (C.R. 107.3m, 614.1c), yet
that ability was "gain[ed]" by an object and "doesn't define a value of X", so that X should be 0 (C.R. 107.3j),
and unfortunately, nothing in C.R. 107 explains which rule takes precedence, either C.R. 107.3j or C.R. 107.3m. But note C.R. 400.6, which applies to the event of moving one object from one zone to another: "If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory ... things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does"; though note also that C.R. 107.3j and 107.3m are rules, not effects. If C.R. 400.6 cannot be understood to allow that player to choose which rule applies this way, then there would arguably be nothing in the comprehensive rules that explains whether C.R. 107.3j or C.R. 107.3m takes precedence.
If the chosen creature has X in its mana cost, that X is considered to be 0. The value of X in Altered Ego’s last ability will be whatever value was chosen for X while casting Altered Ego. [4/8/2016]
What is that even saying? Ego that copies Wildwood Scourge gains the mana cost XG with X = 0 ? The object with that mana cost is on the battlefield so we sort of already knew that.
I gotta say, it's problematic if a Stonecoil Serpent that copies a Stonecoil Serpent becomes something different from one that doesn't, in any context.
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If the chosen creature has X in its mana cost, that X is considered to be 0. The value of X in Altered Ego’s last ability will be whatever value was chosen for X while casting Altered Ego. [4/8/2016]
What is that even saying? Ego that copies Wildwood Scourge gains the mana cost XG with X = 0 ? The object with that mana cost is on the battlefield so we sort of already knew that.
I gotta say, it's problematic if a Stonecoil Serpent that copies a Stonecoil Serpent becomes something different from one that doesn't, in any context.
I don't really understand your question here. Yes, an Ego that copies a Scourge will then try to enter as said Scourge. The X in the mana cost that it just got from the copy effect is 0 because nothing was paid *for that cost*. There was a value of X declared for the Ego and that is why it still gets counters from the Ego's ability. But it won't get additional counters from the Scourge's ability because the mana cost that the ability looks at sees nothing was declared for X.
Your second statement I don't think I can even guess at. Can you clarify what you are trying to out as being problematic?
When something copies what is equivalent to itself, all intuition is that it should have no changes at all. And before copy effects got all weird with Altered Ego, they did work like that.
I suspect rules-as-intended is with your interpretation about X. A possible "repair" for the contradiction pointed out by petero stands out to me if "[this occurs] with [...] copy effects" in 107.3j were intended and changed to say "becomes-a-copy" effects, different from enters-as-a-copy effects.
Alternately, 107.3m might be saying... the replacement effect gets X = 3 from the spell (Altered Ego coming in, or Stonecoil Serpent), but the object on the battlefield, and its textual artifacts such as its abilities, are Xs not defined in those abilities and so they are 0 - this being consistent with how 107.3m lays out that "although the value of X for that permanent is 0." And, still a bit unclearly, we're meant to take that to be that an X = 3 prevails for applying the counters.
I am again unclear on what 107.3m means now, when it says "although the value of X for that permanent is 0". It's supposedly defining two different X values, but... it's notable since it says the X of a permanent. Not a textual quality or 'artifact' with an X glyph directly in it. My naive understanding of X had been that Xs were associated to the object and, by being all the same, that was that. But 107.3 totally deconstructs that idea, up until this very last note.
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Alrighty, this seems to be a bit more problematic that I thought. The Altered Ego ruling is very convincing, but when reading the rules peteroupc mentioned, especially 107.3m, I'm inclined to agree with him.
Stonecoil Serpent is on the field with some counters. Opponent plays his own Stonecoil Serpent, with let's say X=3. I respond with Mystical Reflection on my own Serpent. Does the creature enter as 3/3 or 0/0? Does the answer change if the creature spell is instead a Wildwood Scourge (X=3)?
Fairly sure it's 0/0 in both cases.
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In both cases, X/X (3/3 in your example).In both cases, the "enter the battlefield as copies" replacement takes precedence over the "enters the battlefield with counters" replacement effect (C.R. 616.1c, 616.1e, 614.1c). As a result, Stonecoil Serpent's copiable values will be replaced with those of the chosen creature (see also an example in C.R. 616.1e). And the latter include the ability "Stonecoil Serpent enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it" in both cases. Now we apply the new replacement effect from the latter ability (C.R. 616.1e).
Since the newly acquired ability has an "enters-the-battlefield ... replacement effect [that] refers to X" (C.R. 614.1c), the X on that ability is the same as the spell's (C.R. 107.3m), so the creature will enter the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it.EDIT: Struck out certain text after comment 8 was posted. See comment 4.
While it is not the same situation it seems to suggest that copying something else confers a brand new instance of "X" that we care about. Ego still provides counters because of its own ability but that will not translate into anything else that has X in the mana cost that might be copied. Just because we are copying the same thing in this situation, it is a new instance and X is 0.
As mentioned above, the "enter the battlefield as a copy" works first so the only value of X for the "enter the battlefield with" X value can only be 0.
Or, perhaps in short: Altered Ego with X=3 copying a Serpent doesn't give 6 counters. It only gets counters because of its own copy effect. That additional action/effect is not present here.
What is that even saying? Ego that copies Wildwood Scourge gains the mana cost XG with X = 0 ? The object with that mana cost is on the battlefield so we sort of already knew that.
I gotta say, it's problematic if a Stonecoil Serpent that copies a Stonecoil Serpent becomes something different from one that doesn't, in any context.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Your second statement I don't think I can even guess at. Can you clarify what you are trying to out as being problematic?
I suspect rules-as-intended is with your interpretation about X. A possible "repair" for the contradiction pointed out by petero stands out to me if "[this occurs] with [...] copy effects" in 107.3j were intended and changed to say "becomes-a-copy" effects, different from enters-as-a-copy effects.
Alternately, 107.3m might be saying... the replacement effect gets X = 3 from the spell (Altered Ego coming in, or Stonecoil Serpent), but the object on the battlefield, and its textual artifacts such as its abilities, are Xs not defined in those abilities and so they are 0 - this being consistent with how 107.3m lays out that "although the value of X for that permanent is 0." And, still a bit unclearly, we're meant to take that to be that an X = 3 prevails for applying the counters.
I am again unclear on what 107.3m means now, when it says "although the value of X for that permanent is 0". It's supposedly defining two different X values, but... it's notable since it says the X of a permanent. Not a textual quality or 'artifact' with an X glyph directly in it. My naive understanding of X had been that Xs were associated to the object and, by being all the same, that was that. But 107.3 totally deconstructs that idea, up until this very last note.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)