A) Tormod, the Desecrator is in play, my graveyard is filled with many cards and I cast Treasure Cruise. To pay for the cruise, I tap four lands and exile four cards from my graveyard with delve.
How many zombies do I get from Tormod?
(I know Tormod says it's one zombie "whenever one or more cards leave", but what I'm asking is if every single exiled card from delve is a seperate instance of "whenever", much like my lands are tapped separately one at a time, or if they all go at once? Either I get one or four zombies.)
B) Tormod is again in play and I play Flood of Recollection. Flood returns a card from my graveyard, creating a zombie. Then it exiles itself. Did it ever go to the graveyard before exiling itself, so that I now get a second zombie? Or does it exile itself rather than going to the graveyard at all?
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A) Just one zombie. The cards are exiled all at once, and because the trigger event is worded "one or more cards" and not "a card", Tormod triggers only once and you get one zombie.
B) Flood of Recollection doesn't touch the graveyard. It exiles itself as part of its effect while resolving, and it's still on the stack while it's resolving. It goes from the stack to exile, so no Tormod trigger.
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What about when escaping a card like Cling to Dust? I assume the cards are exiled from the graveyard at the same time as the card moves to the stack, but I was curious if there was any gap in between to make 2 triggers.
What about when escaping a card like Cling to Dust? I assume the cards are exiled from the graveyard at the same time as the card moves to the stack, but I was curious if there was any gap in between to make 2 triggers.
It's not the same time. There will be two triggers, which go on the stack in an order of your choosing (not that the order would matter in this case).
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its
costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the
spell (rules 601.2a–d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f–h). To cast a spell, a
player follows the steps listed below, in order. A player must be legally allowed to cast the spell to
begin this process (see rule 601.3). If a player is unable to comply with the requirements of a step
listed below while performing that step, the casting of the spell is illegal ; the game returns to the
moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 723, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
601.2a To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from
where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics
of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The
spell remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
...
601.2h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable
costs can’t be paid.
Example: You cast Altar’s Reap, which costs {1}{B} and has an additional cost of
sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your
black spells cost {1} less to cast. Because a spell’s total cost is “locked in” before
payments are actually made, you pay {B}, not {1}{B}, even though you’re sacrificing the
Familiar.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
A) Just one zombie. The cards are exiled all at once, and because the trigger event is worded "one or more cards" and not "a card", Tormod triggers only once and you get one zombie.
Can you quote the rule(s) that states that the cards exiled with delve are all exiled at once? Ive read the delve rules and couldn't find this detail. It seems to me that ''each card exiled while casting this spell'' implies that you exile those cards one after the other, each time paying one colorless mana towards the spell total cost. For example, the card Necropolis Fiend has the delve ability, but also has a tap ability wich exiles X cards from the graveyard. The tap ability can exile multiple cards at once, thus creating a single token with tormod. It seems to me that if the cards exiled with delve were all exiled at the same time, the text definition of delve would need to state something like ''Choose X number of cards in your graveyard as you cast this spell. Each of those cards pays for 1 colorless mana. When this spell resolves, exile the chosen cards from your graveyard.''
Can you quote the rule(s) that states that the cards exiled with delve are all exiled at once? Ive read the delve rules and couldn't find this detail. It seems to me that ''each card exiled while casting this spell'' implies that you exile those cards one after the other, each time paying one colorless mana towards the spell total cost. For example, the card Necropolis Fiend has the delve ability, but also has a tap ability wich exiles X cards from the graveyard. The tap ability can exile multiple cards at once, thus creating a single token with tormod. It seems to me that if the cards exiled with delve were all exiled at the same time, the text definition of delve would need to state something like ''Choose X number of cards in your graveyard as you cast this spell. Each of those cards pays for 1 colorless mana. When this spell resolves, exile the chosen cards from your graveyard.''
The closest rule at the time of this writing is C.R. 608.2f (see also C.R. 608.2c).
Delve means "For each generic mana in this spell's total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana" (C.R. 702.65a). And in general, actions of the form "for each ..., [do something]" happen simultaneously. See also this thread and this thread.
And since the escape cost is separated into two portions, namely "3B" and "Exile five other cards from your graveyard", each of these portions is paid in any order (C.R. 601.2h) and not simultaneously, but each individual portion has to occur simultaneously. See also this thread. The same applies to Necropolis Fiend's last ability, whose activation cost has three portions, namely "X", "T", and "Exile X cards from your graveyard" (this applies to activated abilities because of C.R. 602.2b).
So basically there is no definitive rule on this mechanic... wizard needs to clarify this
Actually, C.R. 608.2f, which recites a new rule added with Commander Legends, is clear on this matter: "Some spells and abilities include actions taken on multiple players and/or objects. In most cases, each such action is processed simultaneously", and that includes exiling multiple cards at the same time due to delve. The new rule cites as an example Blatant Thievery, which says "For each opponent, gain control of target permanent that player controls". If more than one permanent is a legal target of Blatant Thievery, those permanents change control simultaneously. Likewise, with delve, which says "For each generic mana ..., you may exile a card from your graveyard ..." (C.R. 702.65a), any cards exiled due to delve are exiled simultaneously.
Actually, C.R. 608.2f, which recites a new rule added with Commander Legends, is clear on this matter: "Some spells and abilities include actions taken on multiple players and/or objects. In most cases, each such action is processed simultaneously", and that includes exiling multiple permanents at the same time due to delve.
Like you said, the examples provided with rule (608.2f) are obvious. Either it is simultaneous triggers, or individual triggers. However, with delve, it isn’t so obvious. Let me explain why I believe so.
(702.65a) “Delve” means “For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana.”
(608.2f) ''In most cases, each such action is processed simultaneously. If the action can’t be processed simultaneously, it’s instead processed considering each affected player or object individually.’’
Let’s focus on the second part ''If the action can’t be processed simultaneously, it’s instead processed considering each affected player or object individually. So, when a spell is put on the stack, there is a certain order to follow.
(601.2f) ‘’The player determines the total cost of the spell’’
(702.65b) ‘’The delve ability … applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve is determined’’
(601.2f) ‘’Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on.’’
(601.2h) ‘’The player pays the total cost in any order.'’
601.2h is key here. Since the player gets to choose the order in which they pay the total cost, it can’t be paid simultaneously, otherwise the player wouldn’t get to choose the order. It just wouldn’t make sense. So, one could choose to pay in a specific order, for example ; delve 1 card instead of paying the first colorless mana, then tap a land or artifact to pay the second colorless mana, then delve another card instead of paying the third colorless mana, and so on. Therefore, each affected object must be treated individually (608.2f).
601.2h is key here. Since the player gets to choose the order in which they pay the total cost, it can’t be paid simultaneously, otherwise the player wouldn’t get to choose the order. It just wouldn’t make sense. So, one could choose to pay in a specific order, for example ; delve 1 card instead of paying the first colorless mana, then tap a land or artifact to pay the second colorless mana, then delve another card instead of paying the third colorless mana, and so on. Therefore, each affected object must be treated individually (608.2f).
With this and also with the intoduction of Dargo, the Shipwrecker, we're in the middle of a rules revolution regarding the payment of costs during the casting/activation process, one made tumultuous with the departure of the previous rules manager. We need to advise WotC rules management as best we can and otherwise be patient until it settles down.
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Matt Tabak just clarified that cards exiled due to delve are exiled at the same time: "The cards are all exiled at the same time. That group exiling is one part of the total cost as described in 601.2h and can be done before or after other parts of that cost (such as the mana payment)." Thus, if more than one card is exiled this way, Tormod's first ability will still trigger at most once.
How many zombies do I get from Tormod?
(I know Tormod says it's one zombie "whenever one or more cards leave", but what I'm asking is if every single exiled card from delve is a seperate instance of "whenever", much like my lands are tapped separately one at a time, or if they all go at once? Either I get one or four zombies.)
B) Tormod is again in play and I play Flood of Recollection. Flood returns a card from my graveyard, creating a zombie. Then it exiles itself. Did it ever go to the graveyard before exiling itself, so that I now get a second zombie? Or does it exile itself rather than going to the graveyard at all?
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
B) Flood of Recollection doesn't touch the graveyard. It exiles itself as part of its effect while resolving, and it's still on the stack while it's resolving. It goes from the stack to exile, so no Tormod trigger.
It's not the same time. There will be two triggers, which go on the stack in an order of your choosing (not that the order would matter in this case).
Can you quote the rule(s) that states that the cards exiled with delve are all exiled at once? Ive read the delve rules and couldn't find this detail. It seems to me that ''each card exiled while casting this spell'' implies that you exile those cards one after the other, each time paying one colorless mana towards the spell total cost. For example, the card Necropolis Fiend has the delve ability, but also has a tap ability wich exiles X cards from the graveyard. The tap ability can exile multiple cards at once, thus creating a single token with tormod. It seems to me that if the cards exiled with delve were all exiled at the same time, the text definition of delve would need to state something like ''Choose X number of cards in your graveyard as you cast this spell. Each of those cards pays for 1 colorless mana. When this spell resolves, exile the chosen cards from your graveyard.''
Delve means "For each generic mana in this spell's total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana" (C.R. 702.65a). And in general, actions of the form "for each ..., [do something]" happen simultaneously. See also this thread and this thread.
And since the escape cost is separated into two portions, namely "3B" and "Exile five other cards from your graveyard", each of these portions is paid in any order (C.R. 601.2h) and not simultaneously, but each individual portion has to occur simultaneously. See also this thread. The same applies to Necropolis Fiend's last ability, whose activation cost has three portions, namely "X", "T", and "Exile X cards from your graveyard" (this applies to activated abilities because of C.R. 602.2b).
Like you said, the examples provided with rule (608.2f) are obvious. Either it is simultaneous triggers, or individual triggers. However, with delve, it isn’t so obvious. Let me explain why I believe so.
(702.65a) “Delve” means “For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana.”
(608.2f) ''In most cases, each such action is processed simultaneously. If the action can’t be processed simultaneously, it’s instead processed considering each affected player or object individually.’’
Let’s focus on the second part ''If the action can’t be processed simultaneously, it’s instead processed considering each affected player or object individually. So, when a spell is put on the stack, there is a certain order to follow.
(601.2f) ‘’The player determines the total cost of the spell’’
(702.65b) ‘’The delve ability … applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve is determined’’
(601.2f) ‘’Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on.’’
(601.2h) ‘’The player pays the total cost in any order.'’
601.2h is key here. Since the player gets to choose the order in which they pay the total cost, it can’t be paid simultaneously, otherwise the player wouldn’t get to choose the order. It just wouldn’t make sense. So, one could choose to pay in a specific order, for example ; delve 1 card instead of paying the first colorless mana, then tap a land or artifact to pay the second colorless mana, then delve another card instead of paying the third colorless mana, and so on. Therefore, each affected object must be treated individually (608.2f).
Since the rule that now appears in C.R. 608.2f was just newly added and an update bulletin wasn't yet issued discussing this rule, all we can do for now is seek further clarification from the rules manager.But see, for example, the case of Torgaar, Famine Incarnate and Banisher Priest discussed in another thread.EDIT: Edited after comment 13 was posted.