What happens when you target Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle with Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi? Will Arixmethes become a 0/0 creature immediately and a 12/12 creature with nine +1/+1 counters later when its five slumber counters are removed?
A closely-related question: What would happen if you targeted Inkmoth Nexus with Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi instead? If you did this first and then activated Inkmoth's ability, would Inkmoth become a 1/1 with nine +1/+1 counters, infect, and flying?
If you activated Inkmoth's ability first, and then targeted it with Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi, does Inkmoth become a 0/0 creature with nine +1/+1 counters, infect, and flying? Would it still be an artifact creature?
Assuming awaken is the first spell cast after arixmethes. It becomes a legendary 0/0 Elemental creature with haste named Vitu-Ghazi with 9 +1/+1 counters and 4 slumber counters on it. Removing the remaining slumber counters will have no effect.
If after using awaken you activate Inkmoth it will be a 1/1 with 9 counters flying and infect until end of turn at which point it becomes a 0/0 with nine counters. Also it will be an artifact.
If you activate inkmoth then use awakening. It becomes a legendary 0/0 Elemental creature with haste named Vitu-Ghazi with 9 counters and flying and infect until end of turn. Where it will lose flying and infect. Also it will stop being an artifact.
All these situations deal with a card changing type: from creature to land, or from land to creature.
When one wishes to establish the final result of such transformations, rule 613.3 must be looked up:
613.3. (...) apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (...), then all other effects in timestamp order (...)
As per this rule, the creature-to-land ability of Arixmethes must always come first, since it's a characteristic-defining ability (CDA, rule 604.3).
It doesn't matter if the Slumber counters get removed prior or after other effects: this ability must be applied first, period.
Then, any change applied after that will override this one: turning Arixmethes into a creature (Vitu-Ghazi) always overrides its creature-to-land inner ability.
Nexus' land-to-creature ability is not a CDA, and neither is Vitu-Ghazi's. Those are 'regular' effects (rules 609.1 & 611.1) which must be applied according to Timestamp: the latest effect will override the previous ones.
604.3a A static ability is a characteristic-defining ability if it meets the following criteria: ... (5) it does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met.
Arixmethes's ability doesn't meet the definition for a CDA.
It doesn't matter for this question since the printed ability will always have an earlier timestamp than the later resolving spell, but it is important to point out.
I very much appreciate the thorough explanations. Thank you! I'd like to confirm my understanding of them. Here's how I understand the explanations that you've provided:
When Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle is cast, it is a 12/12 creature as a function of the writing on the card. As soon as it comes into play, though, its "inner ability" kicks in and it becomes a land, not a creature. A land that isn't also a creature can't have power and toughness, so it loses the 12/12. The implication is that, when the slumbering counters are removed, it will become a creature again so the 12/12 power and toughness written on the card will go back into effect. When Arixmethes is targeted by Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi, it becomes a 0/0 creature. It's a creature again, but its a 0/0, not a 12/12. Its name has been changed from Arixmethes to Vitu-Ghazi, its a 0/0 legendary creature with haste and nine +1/+1 counters, and its also a land.
It still has four slumber counters on it, but there is nothing physically written on the permanent which says that removing those slumber counters will turn Vitu-Ghazi (formerly Arixmethes) into a 12/12 creature. Removing the slumber counters won't do anything because there's nothing written on the permanent that says that removing them will do anything. Even after the slumber counters are removed, it's still a 0/0 creature with nine +1/+1 counters.
I very much appreciate the thorough explanations. Thank you! I'd like to confirm my understanding of them. Here's how I understand the explanations that you've provided:
When Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle is cast, it is a 12/12 creature as a function of the writing on the card. As soon as it comes into play, though, its "inner ability" kicks in and it becomes a land, not a creature. A land that isn't also a creature can't have power and toughness, so it loses the 12/12. The implication is that, when the slumbering counters are removed, it will become a creature again so the 12/12 power and toughness written on the card will go back into effect. When Arixmethes is targeted by Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi, it becomes a 0/0 creature. It's a creature again, but its a 0/0, not a 12/12. Its name has been changed from Arixmethes to Vitu-Ghazi, its a 0/0 legendary creature with haste and nine +1/+1 counters, and its also a land.
It still has four slumber counters on it, but there is nothing physically written on the permanent which says that removing those slumber counters will turn Vitu-Ghazi (formerly Arixmethes) into a 12/12 creature. Removing the slumber counters won't do anything because there's nothing written on the permanent that says that removing them will do anything. Even after the slumber counters are removed, it's still a 0/0 creature with nine +1/+1 counters.
Is this correct?
This is correct, notably because the effect of Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi making Arixmethes, among other things—
"0/0", overrides Arixmethes's usual power and toughness as printed on it (C.R. 613.1, 613.1f, 613.4b).
"a ... creature [that's] still a land" adds the creature card type to Arixmethes despite Arixmethes's second ability because the spell's effect applies "after" Arixmethes's second ability (C.R. 613.7, especially C.R. 613.7a-b, 613.7d; C.R. 205.1b).
In this scenario, once Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi resolves on Arixmethes—
Arixmethes has power and toughness 0/0 (as modified by +1/+1 counters on it and other applicable effects, if any) (C.R. 613.4, especially C.R. 613.4b-c), and is a creature, no matter how many slumber counters Arixmethes has on it, but
Arixmethes is a land creature (and no other card types) if Arixmethes has at least one slumber counter on it (C.R. 205.1a).
In this scenario, once Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi resolves on Arixmethes—
Arixmethes has power and toughness 0/0 (as modified by +1/+1 counters on it and other applicable effects, if any) (C.R. 613.4, especially C.R. 613.4b-c), and is a creature, no matter how many slumber counters Arixmethes has on it, but
Arixmethes is a land creature (and no other card types) if Arixmethes has at least one slumber counter on it (C.R. 205.1a).
So, with at least one slumber counter on it, it's a land creature and without any slumber counters it's just a creature. That's surprising to me because (referring to the newly-created Vitu-Ghazi), the text on Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi says-- "It's still a land." Why isn't "It's still a land" completely independent of the slumber counters?
The phrase "It's still a [type]" has the exact same rules meaning as the phrase "in addition to its other types".
It does not add any types rather it is an instruction that the effect does not strip away any previously present types.
C.R. 201.5b
Vitu's effect could have been written: Put nine +1/+1 counters on target land you control. It becomes a legendary 0/0 Elemental creature in addition to its other types with haste named Vitu-Ghazi.
In general, the design team will use "in addition to its other types" when that phrase can be placed at the end of a sentence. If it needs to be placed in the middle of a sentence, they will use "Its still a type" instead.
There is no rules difference; it's just a matter of English language readability.
The phrase "It's still a [type]" has the exact same rules meaning as the phrase "in addition to its other types". It does not add any types rather it is an instruction that the effect does not strip away any previously present types. C.R. 201.5b Vitu's effect could have been written: Put nine +1/+1 counters on target land you control. It becomes a legendary 0/0 Elemental creature in addition to its other types with haste named Vitu-Ghazi. In general, the design team will use "in addition to its other types" when that phrase can be placed at the end of a sentence. If it needs to be placed in the middle of a sentence, they will use "Its still a type" instead. There is no rules difference; it's just a matter of English language readability.
What I don't understand is how the SLUMBER COUNTERS affect the creature types. Peteroupc said that Arixmethes is still a creature no matter how many slumber counters it has, but that it is a land-creature if it has at least one slumber counter on it.
I don't understand how the slumber counters determine whether it is a LAND-creature or just an ordinary creature.
All Arixmethes's second ability does is add the land card type and take away any other card types (including creature), if Arixmethes has at least one slumber counter on it (C.R. 205.1a). That ability does nothing to Arixmethes's types (including making Arixmethes a land) if Arixmethes has no slumber counters on it. Moreover, effects that begin after Arixmethes enters the battlefield (such as Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi) can still change Arixmethes's card types (such as making Arixmethes a creature again). If such an effect says "It's still a land", "It's still a planeswalker", etc., it doesn't necessarily end just because the object it affects stops being a land, planeswalker, etc. (C.R. 611.2a).
Here is what happens in terms of the layer system. Assume Arixmethes has nine +1/+1 counters on it and one slumber counter on it.
Original object (C.R. 613.1): Arixmethes has its usual text.
Layer 1 (copy): No relevant effects.
Layer 2 (control): No relevant effects.
Layer 3 (text): Arixmethes's name changes to Vitu-Ghazi.
Layer 4 (types): There are two relevant effects: Arixmethes's second ability and Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi. They apply in timestamp order. First, the Arixmethes ability adds the land card type and takes away all other card types (including creature). Then, Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi adds the card type creature, the supertype legendary, and the creature type Elemental. As a result, Arixmethes is a legendary Kraken Elemental land creature (and no other card types).
Layer 5 (colors): No relevant effects.
Layer 6 (abilities): Arixmethes gains haste.
Layer 7 (power and toughness): Arixmethes's base power and toughness become 0/0 (due to Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi), and Arixmethes's nine +1/+1 counters give it +9/+9. Thus, Arixmethes's power and toughness are 9/9.
Now assume that all slumber counters are removed from Arixmethes; here is what happens.
Original object (C.R. 613.1): Arixmethes has its usual text.
Layer 1 (copy): No relevant effects.
Layer 2 (control): No relevant effects.
Layer 3 (text): Arixmethes's name changes to Vitu-Ghazi.
Layer 4 (types): There is only one relevant effect: Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi. Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi adds the card type creature, the subtype legendary, and the creature type Elemental. As a result, Arixmethes is a legendary Kraken Elemental creature (and is not a land because Arixmethes's second ability doesn't apply anymore). (Note that the effect of Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi applies for the rest of the game, which effectively means for as long as Arixmethes is on the battlefield, even if Arixmethes stops being a land [C.R. 611.2a].)
Layer 5 (colors): No relevant effects.
Layer 6 (abilities): Arixmethes gains haste.
Layer 7 (power and toughness): Arixmethes's base power and toughness become 0/0 (due to Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi), and Arixmethes's nine +1/+1 counters give it +9/+9. Thus, Arixmethes's power and toughness are 9/9.
Now assume that all slumber counters are removed from Arixmethes; here is what happens.
Layer 4 (types): There is only one relevant effect: Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi. Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi adds the card type creature, the subtype legendary, and the creature type Elemental. As a result, Arixmethes is a legendary Kraken Elemental creature (and is not a land because Arixmethes's second ability doesn't apply anymore). (Note that the effect of Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi applies for the rest of the game, which effectively means for as long as Arixmethes is on the battlefield, even if Arixmethes stops being a land [C.R. 611.2a].)
Thank you, Peteroupc, for your clear, detailed explanation. What through me off was the text on Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi that says, "It becomes a legendary 0/0 Elemental creature with haste named Vitu-Ghazi. IT'S STILL A LAND." I had assumed that the Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi text, "It's still a land" remained in effect for the rest of the game overriding Arixmethes' second ability and the presence or absence of slumber counters.
I don't understand how the slumber counters determine whether it is a LAND-creature or just an ordinary creature.
Does it have Slumber counters?
If so, the ability says "This is no creature. This is a land."
If not, the ability is silent. Arix is a simple creature.
Then Vitu-Ghazi comes in and says "This is also a creature."
The hard thing to get used to is to look at Arix's ability first, and then look at Vitu-Ghazi, regardless of the time Slumber counters were added/removed.
Now assume that all slumber counters are removed from Arixmethes; here is what happens.
Layer 4 (types): There is only one relevant effect: Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi. Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi adds the card type creature, the subtype legendary, and the creature type Elemental. As a result, Arixmethes is a legendary Kraken Elemental creature (and is not a land because Arixmethes's second ability doesn't apply anymore). (Note that the effect of Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi applies for the rest of the game, which effectively means for as long as Arixmethes is on the battlefield, even if Arixmethes stops being a land [C.R. 611.2a].)
Thank you, Peteroupc, for your clear, detailed explanation. What through me off was the text on Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi that says, "It becomes a legendary 0/0 Elemental creature with haste named Vitu-Ghazi. IT'S STILL A LAND." I had assumed that the Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi text, "It's still a land" remained in effect for the rest of the game overriding Arixmethes' second ability and the presence or absence of slumber counters.
Your misunderstanding comes form assuming the words "its still a land" actually turns the card into a land. It doesn't. The phrase "its still a ____" is synonymous with "in addition to its other types" both are used to simply say "don't overwrite exiting types as is normal". Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi doesn't set the card to "creature land". It sets it to "creature [and whatever was originally here]". So when arixmethes's own ability stops making it a land there is no effect making it a land.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
A closely-related question: What would happen if you targeted Inkmoth Nexus with Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi instead? If you did this first and then activated Inkmoth's ability, would Inkmoth become a 1/1 with nine +1/+1 counters, infect, and flying?
If you activated Inkmoth's ability first, and then targeted it with Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi, does Inkmoth become a 0/0 creature with nine +1/+1 counters, infect, and flying? Would it still be an artifact creature?
If after using awaken you activate Inkmoth it will be a 1/1 with 9 counters flying and infect until end of turn at which point it becomes a 0/0 with nine counters. Also it will be an artifact.
If you activate inkmoth then use awakening. It becomes a legendary 0/0 Elemental creature with haste named Vitu-Ghazi with 9 counters and flying and infect until end of turn. Where it will lose flying and infect. Also it will stop being an artifact.
When one wishes to establish the final result of such transformations, rule 613.3 must be looked up:
As per this rule, the creature-to-land ability of Arixmethes must always come first, since it's a characteristic-defining ability (CDA, rule 604.3).It doesn't matter if the Slumber counters get removed prior or after other effects: this ability must be applied first, period.
Then, any change applied after that will override this one: turning Arixmethes into a creature (Vitu-Ghazi) always overrides its creature-to-land inner ability.
Nexus' land-to-creature ability is not a CDA, and neither is Vitu-Ghazi's. Those are 'regular' effects (rules 609.1 & 611.1) which must be applied according to Timestamp: the latest effect will override the previous ones.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Arixmethes's ability doesn't meet the definition for a CDA.
It doesn't matter for this question since the printed ability will always have an earlier timestamp than the later resolving spell, but it is important to point out.
Arixmethes' creature-to-land ability must always be applied first, because it has the oldest timestamp.
Furthermore, +1/+1 countres ALWAYS COUNT, since the always get applied last. (rule 613.1g)
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
When Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle is cast, it is a 12/12 creature as a function of the writing on the card. As soon as it comes into play, though, its "inner ability" kicks in and it becomes a land, not a creature. A land that isn't also a creature can't have power and toughness, so it loses the 12/12. The implication is that, when the slumbering counters are removed, it will become a creature again so the 12/12 power and toughness written on the card will go back into effect. When Arixmethes is targeted by Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi, it becomes a 0/0 creature. It's a creature again, but its a 0/0, not a 12/12. Its name has been changed from Arixmethes to Vitu-Ghazi, its a 0/0 legendary creature with haste and nine +1/+1 counters, and its also a land.
It still has four slumber counters on it, but there is nothing physically written on the permanent which says that removing those slumber counters will turn Vitu-Ghazi (formerly Arixmethes) into a 12/12 creature. Removing the slumber counters won't do anything because there's nothing written on the permanent that says that removing them will do anything. Even after the slumber counters are removed, it's still a 0/0 creature with nine +1/+1 counters.
Is this correct?
It does not add any types rather it is an instruction that the effect does not strip away any previously present types.
C.R. 201.5b
Vitu's effect could have been written: Put nine +1/+1 counters on target land you control. It becomes a legendary 0/0 Elemental creature in addition to its other types with haste named Vitu-Ghazi.
In general, the design team will use "in addition to its other types" when that phrase can be placed at the end of a sentence. If it needs to be placed in the middle of a sentence, they will use "Its still a type" instead.
There is no rules difference; it's just a matter of English language readability.
I don't understand how the slumber counters determine whether it is a LAND-creature or just an ordinary creature.
Here is what happens in terms of the layer system. Assume Arixmethes has nine +1/+1 counters on it and one slumber counter on it.
Now assume that all slumber counters are removed from Arixmethes; here is what happens.
See also this thread.
Does it have Slumber counters?
If so, the ability says "This is no creature. This is a land."
If not, the ability is silent. Arix is a simple creature.
Then Vitu-Ghazi comes in and says "This is also a creature."
The hard thing to get used to is to look at Arix's ability first, and then look at Vitu-Ghazi, regardless of the time Slumber counters were added/removed.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules