Hey, I did a search but didn't come up with the answeres I was looking for. If there's already a post I'm not aware of please feel free to link it.
I'm a little confused about copying spells. Not in clear cut cases like with a lightning bolt or something - but with other spells that are a bit more nuanced.
For instance lets say I have Wort, the raidmother out and like... idk 8 additional creatures to conspire with. And lets say I cast Forgotten Lore and copy it 3X. What happens? Can my oppent just choose the same card for each copy of the spell? What If I pay the green mana to have him change targets? What if I do that for each copy of the spell?
What about spells with additional costs like rites of spring? Am I copying a spell that has already had the discount costs paid? Am I copy the spell before the additional costs are paid and have to pay it for every copy? Can I even pay the alternative cost for the copy?
Like in the above example I cast rites of spring, discard 3 cards, and copy the spell 3X. How many lands do I get to fetch?
Inquiring minds want to know - Stravinsky is rolling in his grave, restless, until these mysteries are revealed.
For instance lets say I have Wort, the raidmother out and like... idk 8 additional creatures to conspire with. And lets say I cast Forgotten Lore and copy it 3X. What happens? Can my oppent just choose the same card for each copy of the spell? What If I pay the green mana to have him change targets? What if I do that for each copy of the spell?
Wort's second ability interacts with Forgotten Lore just as it does with any other "red or green instant or sorcery spell you control"; namely it grants the spell conspire. In general, with conspire, you can choose to tap only "two untapped creatures you control that each share a color with" Forgotten Lore (C.R. 702.77a), not more than two even if you control more than two, and when you do, you copy that spell only once (C.R. 702.77a). Compare conspire with replicate, which lets you pay a given additional cost any number of times (C.R. 702.55a).
Also, for the purposes of Forgotten Lore, a "card not already chosen for Forgotten Lore" means a card not already chosen while the spell where that text appears is resolving, and refers to the text "Target opponent chooses a card in your graveyard". Thus, the same card can be chosen for different spells named Forgotten Lore, even if those spells were copies of another spell. Here, the text "Forgotten Lore" means only the spell where that text appears, not any other object even if it's also named Forgotten Lore (C.R. 201.4).
Note also that Forgotten Lore targets only an "opponent"; it doesn't target any cards. Review that card's Oracle text (C.R. 108.1). If you copy Forgotten Lore, you may change the copy's target to another "opponent" (C.R. 706.10, 702.77a).
Finally, the whole effect of Forgotten Lore happens only when that spell resolves, not as it's cast (C.R. 608.2c); in general, all you have to do to cast Forgotten Lore is put Forgotten Lore on the stack, target an opponent, and pay the mana cost (normally G) (and optionally tap two untapped green creatures you control if the spell has conspire [C.R. 702.77a]) (C.R. 601.2).
What about spells with additional costs like rites of spring? Am I copying a spell that has already had the discount costs paid? Am I copy the spell before the additional costs are paid and have to pay it for every copy? Can I even pay the alternative cost for the copy?
Rites of Spring has no additional costs, so you "discard any number of cards" only when that spell (or a copy of it) resolves, not as you cast it (C.R. 608.2c). But otherwise, yes, no, and no are the answers. If you copy a spell, the spell's costs (including its alternative and additional costs, if any) are not paid again (and can't be paid again) for the copy, because the copy isn't cast (C.R. 706.10; review C.R. 601.2).
Like in the above example I cast rites of spring, discard 3 cards, and copy the spell 3X. How many lands do I get to fetch?
Again, you discard the cards for Rites of Spring only when that spell (or a copy of it) resolves, not as you cast it (C.R. 608.2c), and you search your library for "up to that many basic land cards" (C.R. 108.1). Rites of Spring doesn't say, for example, "As an additional cost to cast this spell, discard any number of cards". Compare Rites of Spring with Abandon Hope or Insidious Dreams, where you discard the cards as an additional cost (for Abandon Hope, see C.R. 108.1). If you copy Abandon Hope or Insidious Dreams, however, it will have the same value for X as the original, and you don't pay any costs again for the copy (e.g., you don't discard more cards).
EDIT: Edited slightly, after comment 4 was posted.
Wort's second ability interacts with Forgotten Lore just as it does with any other "red or green instant or sorcery spell you control"; namely it grants the spell conspire. With conspire, you can choose to tap only "two untapped creatures you control that each share a color with" Forgotten Lore (C.R. 702.77a), not more than two even if you control more than two, and when you do, you copy that spell only once (C.R. 702.77a). Compare conspire with replicate, which lets you pay a given additional cost any number of times (C.R. 702.55a).
Oh, so I like totally misunderstood the entire conspire mechanic then. You only ever can get a maximum of 1 copy from a spell - you can't just tap two creatures, then another two, and so on for as many creature pairs as you have to copy the spell multiple times. That's definitely important.
Thanks for sparing me the embarrassment of screwing that up in person!
Well, you can get a copy for each instance of the conspire ability on the spell by tapping two creatures of appropriate colors for each. So if Wort gives conspire to a red or green instant/sorcery of yours, that already has conspire, or you somehow manage control two Worts, you can conspire twice.
702.77b If a spell has multiple instances of conspire, each is paid separately and triggers based on its own payment, not any other instance of conspire.
I'm a little confused about copying spells. Not in clear cut cases like with a lightning bolt or something - but with other spells that are a bit more nuanced.
For instance lets say I have Wort, the raidmother out and like... idk 8 additional creatures to conspire with. And lets say I cast Forgotten Lore and copy it 3X. What happens? Can my oppent just choose the same card for each copy of the spell? What If I pay the green mana to have him change targets? What if I do that for each copy of the spell?
That sort of thing - How do Wort, the raidmother and Forgotten Lore interact?
What about spells with additional costs like rites of spring? Am I copying a spell that has already had the discount costs paid? Am I copy the spell before the additional costs are paid and have to pay it for every copy? Can I even pay the alternative cost for the copy?
Like in the above example I cast rites of spring, discard 3 cards, and copy the spell 3X. How many lands do I get to fetch?
Inquiring minds want to know - Stravinsky is rolling in his grave, restless, until these mysteries are revealed.
Wort's second ability interacts with Forgotten Lore just as it does with any other "red or green instant or sorcery spell you control"; namely it grants the spell conspire. In general, with conspire, you can choose to tap only "two untapped creatures you control that each share a color with" Forgotten Lore (C.R. 702.77a), not more than two even if you control more than two, and when you do, you copy that spell only once (C.R. 702.77a). Compare conspire with replicate, which lets you pay a given additional cost any number of times (C.R. 702.55a).
Also, for the purposes of Forgotten Lore, a "card not already chosen for Forgotten Lore" means a card not already chosen while the spell where that text appears is resolving, and refers to the text "Target opponent chooses a card in your graveyard". Thus, the same card can be chosen for different spells named Forgotten Lore, even if those spells were copies of another spell. Here, the text "Forgotten Lore" means only the spell where that text appears, not any other object even if it's also named Forgotten Lore (C.R. 201.4).
Note also that Forgotten Lore targets only an "opponent"; it doesn't target any cards. Review that card's Oracle text (C.R. 108.1). If you copy Forgotten Lore, you may change the copy's target to another "opponent" (C.R. 706.10, 702.77a).
Finally, the whole effect of Forgotten Lore happens only when that spell resolves, not as it's cast (C.R. 608.2c); in general, all you have to do to cast Forgotten Lore is put Forgotten Lore on the stack, target an opponent, and pay the mana cost (normally G) (and optionally tap two untapped green creatures you control if the spell has conspire [C.R. 702.77a]) (C.R. 601.2).
Rites of Spring has no additional costs, so you "discard any number of cards" only when that spell (or a copy of it) resolves, not as you cast it (C.R. 608.2c). But otherwise, yes, no, and no are the answers. If you copy a spell, the spell's costs (including its alternative and additional costs, if any) are not paid again (and can't be paid again) for the copy, because the copy isn't cast (C.R. 706.10; review C.R. 601.2).
Again, you discard the cards for Rites of Spring only when that spell (or a copy of it) resolves, not as you cast it (C.R. 608.2c), and you search your library for "up to that many basic land cards" (C.R. 108.1). Rites of Spring doesn't say, for example, "As an additional cost to cast this spell, discard any number of cards". Compare Rites of Spring with Abandon Hope or Insidious Dreams, where you discard the cards as an additional cost (for Abandon Hope, see C.R. 108.1). If you copy Abandon Hope or Insidious Dreams, however, it will have the same value for X as the original, and you don't pay any costs again for the copy (e.g., you don't discard more cards).
EDIT: Edited slightly, after comment 4 was posted.
Oh, so I like totally misunderstood the entire conspire mechanic then. You only ever can get a maximum of 1 copy from a spell - you can't just tap two creatures, then another two, and so on for as many creature pairs as you have to copy the spell multiple times. That's definitely important.
Thanks for sparing me the embarrassment of screwing that up in person!
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